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[Steve Eudaly]

I always feel a solution for those in your situation is to look at used rental inventory from nearby established sound companies.

Lots of "previous generation" EAW/JBL/Turbosound/EV gear for sale these days at a fraction of its new cost that is still very capable. It won't be light, but it will get loud and if properly powered and processed, will likely sound quite good doing so.

Call your regional providers and see what they've got. You may just be catching them at the right time in their inventory cycle.

[Augustine Ortiz]

"Small line array" is an oxymoron. The line array effect starts happening in a useful way when the array gets large.
The column + sub speakers don't have the low-mid grunt for loud metal.

When you say you're clipping the DSR115s, are you running them full-range, or with a crossover to some subwoofers? If you're running with subs, how many? What crossover frequency?
You can never give us too much information about your setup.

Chris

I usually run 1 QSC KW181 or 2 Yorkville LS808 powered by an iNuke NU6000.   Crossover at 100hz.  With the DSR115, this will be in a small room, 100ish people, but getting over some bands will hit the limit lights.  Generally I mic drums even in small places to give them a bit more oomph and not be drowned out by guitars/bass.

For lighter bands, it usually isn't a problem.  But man getting vocals over 2 full stacks and an 8x10 can be pretty demanding.  There is also the reality that I am fighting mic bleed also, so it may not matter.

Budget I was looking at $10k, but it is looking like $20k might be a more realistic number.  At $20k, like mentioned earlier, I would really have to be looking at higher paying gigs, which is partially the goal.  Sadly there aren't a lot of good rental places here and finding reliable help has been nearly impossible.

Really though it is to do the gigs I do but hopefully unquestionably better, easier, and less to the limit for a $10k investment.  Doesn't sound like that will really be the case.

But huge thanks for the info.  The JTR stuff looks really cool, had never even heard of them.  Danley and Bassboss I have been looking at.

Also been looking at KS Audio, which will be closer to $10k for a pointsource system.

[Renard Hurtado]

Hi there,


Please try out the DbTechnologies Ingenia4T. 
I have these for about four months now, all I can say is that mey JBl SRX-725's are enjoying a four month vacation !

Get four of the IG4T and stack them, get plenty of sub and off you go.

[Renard Hurtado]

Hi there,
I am happy to find a RCF TTL-6 user.

I own the DbTechnologies Ingenia 4T and am quite happy with them.
I was looking at the TTl-6 ( somebody mentioned somewhere that it`s the same as the HDL-50, but mounted vertically), but it`s quite heavy and pricey,

You say that the Noesies3TX has better throw, what do you mean ? Are you comparing one on one?

How would you compare the Noesis 3Tx to the JBL SRX-725 and the EAW Kf-650 ?  Sound wise and SPL wise.

Much appreciated.

Renard from Curacao

[Steve Litcher]

Hi there,
I am happy to find a RCF TTL-6 user.

I own the DbTechnologies Ingenia 4T and am quite happy with them.
I was looking at the TTl-6 ( somebody mentioned somewhere that it`s the same as the HDL-50, but mounted vertically), but it`s quite heavy and pricey,

You say that the Noesies3TX has better throw, what do you mean ? Are you comparing one on one?

How would you compare the Noesis 3Tx to the JBL SRX-725 and the EAW Kf-650 ?  Sound wise and SPL wise.

Much appreciated.

Renard from Curacao

Hi,

The Noesis has a coaxial mid/high driver mounted to a horn (it has two horn options: 90x60 or 60x40). The 60x40 horn throws sound quite a distance (great if you're arraying two of them, or are working in a "long" space).

The TTL6-A has a 90x30 throw pattern: 5-degrees "up" and 25-degrees "down". Not as much throw, but nice horizontal coverage.

I have compared both, side-by-side. I like them both. The TTL6-A is voiced a little differently (it has proprietary voicing/EQ/etc in its internal DSP). The JTR is clean - no coloration. I also believe it's crossed over to the coax fairly low, and that coax sounds wonderful.

I do have to roll off a bit on the high-end of the JTR; usually a notch around 8K and then start a gentle shelf at around 12k. The RCF we run flat (sometimes taking a little 500-630Hz out of them to clean-up vocals).

And yes - the TTL6-A is heavy. Holy cats is it heavy (compared to the Noesis 3TX).

If rider issues aren't a concern, the JTR are the way to go. You can get 2 for the price of one TTL6-A, they weigh 50-lbs (vs 120-lbs), and they are extremely potent and capable.

I've never tried them against the JBL SRX725 or the EAW KF650.

[Steve Litcher]

I usually run 1 QSC KW181 or 2 Yorkville LS808 powered by an iNuke NU6000.   Crossover at 100hz.  With the DSR115, this will be in a small room, 100ish people, but getting over some bands will hit the limit lights.  Generally I mic drums even in small places to give them a bit more oomph and not be drowned out by guitars/bass.

For lighter bands, it usually isn't a problem.  But man getting vocals over 2 full stacks and an 8x10 can be pretty demanding.  There is also the reality that I am fighting mic bleed also, so it may not matter.

Budget I was looking at $10k, but it is looking like $20k might be a more realistic number.  At $20k, like mentioned earlier, I would really have to be looking at higher paying gigs, which is partially the goal.  Sadly there aren't a lot of good rental places here and finding reliable help has been nearly impossible.

Really though it is to do the gigs I do but hopefully unquestionably better, easier, and less to the limit for a $10k investment.  Doesn't sound like that will really be the case.

But huge thanks for the info.  The JTR stuff looks really cool, had never even heard of them.  Danley and Bassboss I have been looking at.

Also been looking at KS Audio, which will be closer to $10k for a pointsource system.

I'm sort of surprised to hear the DSR115 have trouble getting the vocals over a band; we use the DSR112 in a lot of very loud rooms with tons of stage volume, and vocals typically cut through. I'd check EQ, compression settings, and so on.

That said... if I were looking to upgrade, and my budget was $10k - $20k, I'd consider:

2x JTR C218Pro powered subs ~ $5200 for the pair (according to website)
2x JTR 3TX Noesis passive tops ~ $4400 for the pair (according to website)
1x DSP - dbx Venu360? ~ $500 if you shop around
1x PLD4.5 for the tops (allows for growth) ~ $1800 if you shop around

The PLD4.5 is probably overkill if you don't have plans to expand, or if you can't use the other two channels to power something... but it is an awesome amplifier. Our upgrade path went from PLX3602 to PL380 to PLD4.5 - sound quality with the 4.5 is much better than the two previous amps.

Should put you at around $12k all-in, and you'd have a pretty potent system that's easily moved by one person.

The only other items I'd strongly urge that you purchase: *good* speaker poles (about 24-36") and if you don't already have them, look into the BT-12 speaker tilters from Nimrod. They are absolutely amazing.

Good poles and the BT-12 might help a bunch with your vocals cutting through on the DSR115s... get them up a little higher and aim/tilt accordingly.

[Craig Leerman]

Will you make more money by replacing a bunch of gear?

What is your budget?

Just moving to other MI gear won’t change much.

With loud shows, going to bigger rooms (more people) means more spl. To make a difference you need at least 6dB which you won’t get just changing brands in the same class.

Tim M points out that moving up a level costs as much as all you have ever spent to date. This happens each time you move up.

This.

I’ll add that moving up may increase your power needs and transportation requirements. 

Also, just because you can hear small improvements when you change out some gear does not mean the average person could hear any improvement.

[Chris Hindle]

This.

I’ll add that moving up may increase your power needs and transportation requirements. 

Also, just because you can hear small improvements when you change out some gear does not mean the average person could hear any improvement.

... or is WILLING to PAY for the "improvements"
That my friends, is the bottom line.
It's a BUSINESS, not a big-ass personal stereo for you and your buddies.
Chris.

[Dave Garoutte]

... or is WILLING to PAY for the "improvements"
That my friends, is the bottom line.
It's a BUSINESS, not a big-ass personal stereo for you and your buddies.
Chris.

Wait . . it's not?

[Mark Wilkinson]

How would you compare the Noesis 3Tx to the JBL SRX-725 and the EAW Kf-650 ?  Sound wise and SPL wise.

Hi Renard, I spent a fair amount of time comparing the 3TX to a Kf-695z side by side.
Unfortunately for a direct comparison, the 3TX had a 60 degree horn. 
Anyway, I was high-passing both at 100 HZ, with a very strong double 18" sub.
Both the 3TX and Kf-695 were aligned nicely with the sub.

SPL wise, I'd put them in the same boat.

Soundwise, they were quite a bit different...despite transfer functions looking more alike than not.

Something about the BMS coax compression driver in the 3TX ......makes from midrange and up,  stand out brighter somehow.
Not brighter harsher, more like brighter clearer.

It took quite a bit of dialing back the highend of the 3TX to get them close to the same sound.
Given how close the on-axis transfers looked and how carefully I had matched SPLs, it was pretty surprising how much adjustment it took.
I realize there was the 60-degree vs 90-degree horn factor to take in to account, but this was outdoors and on-axis. So I dunno...

I personally like the clearer, brighter sound of the 3TX.  But that's just my preference.
Other than weight reduction, and the mentioned clarity gain, they are pretty lateral IMO.




 

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