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Author Topic: Biamped Stage Wedges  (Read 6556 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2018, 12:38:05 AM »

Having sold pro audio equipment for 45+ years I must say..in a backhanded way..I don't know how to spell Peavy correctly, with a certain amount of pride
Good for you.

Sorry about the veer, I didn't mean to bother the "professionals".

JR 
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2018, 05:50:45 PM »

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned reduced intermodulation distortion as a benefit to bi-amped cabinets versus passive crossover designs. 


Good article on bi-amping here.  And a related topic from 12 years ago here.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2018, 07:41:33 PM »

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned reduced intermodulation distortion as a benefit to bi-amped cabinets versus passive crossover designs. 


Good article on bi-amping here.  And a related topic from 12 years ago here.

No problem if you use decent flux capacitors in your design.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 07:43:35 PM by Geert Friedhof »
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Luke Geis

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2018, 10:46:56 PM »

The whole intermodulation thing with amplifiers is pretty much the salesman trying to sell the audiophile another amp. 30-40 years ago this may have been a thing in cheaper amps, but modern amps ( at least ones employed at the level in which a Bi-Amped system would be used ) are certain to not have this issue. It is mostly tied to excessive levels of global feedback and badly designed phase splitters. Most phase splitter circuit these days are well designed and very little negative feedback is needed to acquire a linear output. Not to mention that one of the most simple and easy to utilize tools to negate this effect is a Low-Pass filter that exists just above the highest frequency of interest; a trick that is certain to be in even the cheapest of amplifiers.

The concept of reducing distortion overall in monitor rigs is a more recent foray. Dave Rat is actually working on building what he desires to be the loudest and most distortion-free monitor in the world. He started on it in 2015 and There is a Youtube video he did with Powersoft not too long ago.  Article here: http://daverat.blogspot.com/2015_05_03_archive.html

The concept isn't so much the distortion from amplifiers or speakers alone, but more the separation of key things that any one speaker is doing to reduce intermodulation caused by the audio itself. It is the equivalent of mains and subs on an aux, but all in one speaker. For the typical lackey sound guy, this would be overkill, but I would love to own a set if they were internally powered!!!! This is a trick that you can do on your own if you have three times the number of wedges to utilize. Place the vocals in the middle wedge and create a stereo mix with the other two.
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Jeremy Young

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2018, 12:10:08 PM »

I trust you guys know more than I do on the topic, so are you suggesting that intermodulation distortion is another old-technology problem that can be ignored today with modern crossover designs and amplifier topologies?
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2018, 04:51:12 PM »

That's really too bad Mike.
My system is entirely "pro", and still manages to integrate a few Peavey gems.
1545 monitors, bi-amped. I removed the crossovers, and put in a second handle. A pound or 3 less, and easier to handle. I put NL-4's in and out on the baffle board.
CS200x amps (4 of them) driving the horns, and MX-1500's for the Black Widows. It's quite a potent rig, and b-listers have never turned them down.
I also have a couple of their Audio Link 24*6 snakes. Almost 30 years, and never a problem.
Believe what you want, but in general, if something is operated within its design parameters, it should work just fine. Peavey is a great example of this.

It's easy to bash something, if your mind is not open to at least try.

Regards, Chris.

Peavey did make and market a lot of the "entry level" gear, but I also have what I would consider a "pro" system (Peavey QW tops/VR subs/CS amps) and it gets by just fine.  I also don't do large arena shows, but for my bar venues and outdoor shows I do (<1500 people) my Peavey QW tops and VR subs get quite a few compliments.  And not just Joe public, but from the bands as well.  I have provided production for touring bands with tech riders, and had to deal with the "Peavey" clause once or twice during the booking process, but after the show, the band and/or manager come up and tell me that they were very impressed with the sound quality of my rig.

Veering back to the subject, I do have 4 EAW SM222's for those times when the biamp monitors come up, but that doesn't change my main rig. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 04:56:32 PM by Matt Greiner »
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Pat Semeraro

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2018, 10:24:23 PM »


What exactly is an artist/touring engineer/manager expecting to accomplish by having bi-amped wedges?


Saw that on riders all the time.  Typically it was just a quality filter to make sure they didn't get stuck with a QSC K12 or Mackie 450 or similar.  We would let the producer know what was available for that date, typically SRX712, UM1P, or JFX290 bi-amped via ux8800.  If they wanted something else then we would get it and charge appropriately.

Name DJs were a whole other thing... but most up and comers were happy with our modded LA325s on top of an SB528z, one on each side of their rig as big headphones.  A  few were very specific and demanded specific line array boxes pointed right at their ears. Sot that's what we would get them.  Crazy...
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Peter Morris

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2018, 11:17:26 PM »

Saw that on riders all the time.  Typically it was just a quality filter to make sure they didn't get stuck with a QSC K12 or Mackie 450 or similar.  We would let the producer know what was available for that date, typically SRX712, UM1P, or JFX290 bi-amped via ux8800.  If they wanted something else then we would get it and charge appropriately.

Name DJs were a whole other thing... but most up and comers were happy with our modded LA325s on top of an SB528z, one on each side of their rig as big headphones.  A  few were very specific and demanded specific line array boxes pointed right at their ears. Sot that's what we would get them.  Crazy...

Yep – it was exactly like that. Typically they would ask for a bi-amp 15” wedge with a 2” inch horn.  By 2” they meant a large format compression driver with a 3” or 4” diaphragm.

Until recently amplifier power was limited and/or very expensive. Bi-amping produced more SPL and clarity from what was typically available – think in terms of about 6 dB more with the amps most people were using. 

Riders are now more specific and will request name brand wedges such as  D&B Audiotechnik M2 / M4 or L-Acoustics 115XT HiQ ... but they will often accept hi-end wedges from well know manufactures that have large format horns and are correctly powered and processed in accordance with the manufactures specifications.

FWIW my old DJ fold back was the same as yours, a couple of LA325s on some double 18"s.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 02:15:06 AM by Peter Morris »
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2018, 10:05:51 AM »

Typically it was just a quality filter to make sure they didn't get stuck with a QSC K12 or Mackie 450 or similar.

Both of which are actually biamped! 

A more likely worry would have been Yamaha Club Series and similar MI speakers.
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Spenser Hamilton

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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 12:27:06 PM »

Peavey did make and market a lot of the "entry level" gear, but I also have what I would consider a "pro" system (Peavey QW tops/VR subs/CS amps) and it gets by just fine.  I also don't do large arena shows, but for my bar venues and outdoor shows I do (<1500 people) my Peavey QW tops and VR subs get quite a few compliments.  And not just Joe public, but from the bands as well.  I have provided production for touring bands with tech riders, and had to deal with the "Peavey" clause once or twice during the booking process, but after the show, the band and/or manager come up and tell me that they were very impressed with the sound quality of my rig.

Veering back to the subject, I do have 4 EAW SM222's for those times when the biamp monitors come up, but that doesn't change my main rig.

While that is a great system, calling it "Pro" is a bit of a stretch. I mixed on a similar system (2xQW tops over 2x QW Bass over 3x VR218 Subs per side), and then a week later mixed on Turbosound Flex and Outline Butterfly systems, there is a reason that the Turbo and Outline cost more.

 The QW/Versarray system more than did it's job, but I had to spend some time EQing it with a 31-band across the main buss, whereas I don't think I even bothered to patch EQs on the other two systems.
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Re: Biamped Stage Wedges
ยซ Reply #29 on: September 06, 2018, 12:27:06 PM ยป


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