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[Jongos Mandiri]

Hi all...
First of all I know it's newbie question...I'm so sorry...but I'm not asking how to connect + and - to form paralel connection....
Second, english is not my native, I hope I can explain my problem here.

I have a situation,
I'm running out of speaker cables and power amp channels...but still have 1 channel with enough power to drive 2 speakers at 4ohm.

Both speakers need to be in parallel.
The problem is I don't know which one the best method and how to calculate and what will be happened with Damping Factor, power output and freq response on both speakers (especially second/farthest speakers).

1. Second Speakers is 5 meters away from 1st one and connected from speakon LINK out. The speakons in 1st speakers are in parallel. Will it degrade power outs and freq response to 2nd speaker?


2. Create a parallel connection point. The point is after Amp out before goes to both speakers, so I will have equal length from parallel connection point to both of speakers.



Thank you so much

[Rob Spence]

For 5m (~15’) it wont make any noticeable difference as long as you are using wire of a sufficient gage.

You don’t say how much power is involved.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Jongos Mandiri]

For 5m (~15’) it wont make any noticeable difference as long as you are using wire of a sufficient gage.

You don’t say how much power is involved.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Rob, thank you
I forget to mention that from amp to 1st speaker is more than 15 meters.
And the speakers is 750 watt at 8ohm each, so in paralel 1500watt at 4ohm.
Both speakers are same brand and type
Thank you

[David Allred]

Rob, thank you
I forget to mention that from amp to 1st speaker is more than 15 meters.
And the speakers is 750 watt at 8ohm each, so in paralel 1500watt at 4ohm.
Both speakers are same brand and type
Thank you

The split-cable (2.5m each way) is only feasible for a DJ set-up, studio control room (not sure why a pair of mono speakers would used though), or install.  Those are the only times an amp would be in between speakers.  Aside from that, the 3 wire junction will not be the most convenient (or easy) thing.
Assuming that a damping factor of 20 is the lowest you should go...
20m of 12awg = 18 df (@4 ohm)
20m of 10awg = 28 df       "
25m of 12awg = 13 df       "
25m 0f 10awg = 23 df       "

[Luke Geis]

As for whether your second speaker that was linked from the first speaker will lose any power, or sound different than the first one, the answer is not that you could tell.

Damping factor goes out the window with just about any speaker cable once you get past 50' ( 15 meters ). Or put more firmly, once your cable is longer than 50', DF is no longer existent enough to even consider it as a performance mark. The amount of power lost will be minimal. I suspect that the difference between the output of both speakers will be within 1/2 of a db. Or so little difference that you and 99.99% of others could never tell even if both speakers were right next to each other. The resultant change in frequency response will again be so little that if you did measure a difference, it was likely not because of cable length, but actually because of manufacturing tolerances.

Damping factor is really not even worth considering unless you are running subs or dealing with a critical listening environment. Critical listening means a silent room in which the listeners are there to critically evaluate the media. The losses in cables from length and gauge can be found online in the form of calculators, but again, the differences are usually so small with common cable runs that it really isn't worth beating your head against the wall.

[Ken Webster]

Hi,

For years we have some foldback speakers that sounded muffled & boomy & front of house lacked clarity & bass response.  So, I did some research. replaced cables and now we have exceptionally good sound reinforcement, just some room acoustics issues remain.

The usual advice I have seen for PA is that the speaker cables should be no more than 5% of the speaker impedance. 

However, over at Audioholics I read an article that suggested that 2% would satisfy the pickiest audiophile, so for the price of heavier cable in the total budget, I decided to try this.


Of course, for communal praise and worship. this is overkill but for contemplative audio presentations or preaching, clear & natural sound is most important especially for more aged parishioners.  So for us, well worth the extra expense of heavier cable in my opinion.  For me, the difference between 5% and 2% is obvious, some others can’t pick it but I suspect their engagement with the presentation is enhanced anyway.

If working to 5% of speaker impedance in example 1, connecting 2 8-ohm speakers in parallel, the load to the 1st speaker is 4-ohms so the cable must be no more than 0.2 ohms (15m of 13 AWG).  The 2nd speaker is 8 ohms on the last cable so there we are allowed 0.4 ohms all up but we have already used up 0.2 ohms of our cable budget so we are allowed only another 0.2 ohms (5 m of 18 AWG).  Of course, this is the very minimal PA speaker gauge required and may not achieve the clarity you desire.  I expect heavier gauge wire would give cleaner sound if you can do it.  As the 2nd length of cable is smaller, you could just run 13 AWG all the way through as it may be cheaper to buy all the one gauge.

If working to 2% of speaker impedance in the same example, I don’t think they make a speaker cable heavy enough for those lengths.  You could run 2 sets of 15m 12-AWG cables to the 1st speaker, 2 conductors for each binding post (0.08-ohms).  Then run 5m of 14 AWG between the 2 speakers or maybe use 12 AWG here if that’s what you have.  This is the upper limit to satisfy the most critical listener in the best listening environment.
There is no correct answer but hopefully I have defined an upper and lower limit for you.  Anywhere between these should be fine the choice is yours.

Regards,
Ken

[Jongos Mandiri]

Hi,

For years we have some foldback speakers that sounded muffled & boomy & front of house lacked clarity & bass response.  So, I did some research. replaced cables and now we have exceptionally good sound reinforcement, just some room acoustics issues remain.

The usual advice I have seen for PA is that the speaker cables should be no more than 5% of the speaker impedance. 

However, over at Audioholics I read an article that suggested that 2% would satisfy the pickiest audiophile, so for the price of heavier cable in the total budget, I decided to try this.


Of course, for communal praise and worship. this is overkill but for contemplative audio presentations or preaching, clear & natural sound is most important especially for more aged parishioners.  So for us, well worth the extra expense of heavier cable in my opinion.  For me, the difference between 5% and 2% is obvious, some others can’t pick it but I suspect their engagement with the presentation is enhanced anyway.

If working to 5% of speaker impedance in example 1, connecting 2 8-ohm speakers in parallel, the load to the 1st speaker is 4-ohms so the cable must be no more than 0.2 ohms (15m of 13 AWG).  The 2nd speaker is 8 ohms on the last cable so there we are allowed 0.4 ohms all up but we have already used up 0.2 ohms of our cable budget so we are allowed only another 0.2 ohms (5 m of 18 AWG).  Of course, this is the very minimal PA speaker gauge required and may not achieve the clarity you desire.  I expect heavier gauge wire would give cleaner sound if you can do it.  As the 2nd length of cable is smaller, you could just run 13 AWG all the way through as it may be cheaper to buy all the one gauge.

If working to 2% of speaker impedance in the same example, I don’t think they make a speaker cable heavy enough for those lengths.  You could run 2 sets of 15m 12-AWG cables to the 1st speaker, 2 conductors for each binding post (0.08-ohms).  Then run 5m of 14 AWG between the 2 speakers or maybe use 12 AWG here if that’s what you have.  This is the upper limit to satisfy the most critical listener in the best listening environment.
There is no correct answer but hopefully I have defined an upper and lower limit for you.  Anywhere between these should be fine the choice is yours.

Regards,
Ken

Wow....thanks for sharing..interesting I'll study it..

[Jongos Mandiri]

As for whether your second speaker that was linked from the first speaker will lose any power, or sound different than the first one, the answer is not that you could tell.

Damping factor goes out the window with just about any speaker cable once you get past 50' ( 15 meters ). Or put more firmly, once your cable is longer than 50', DF is no longer existent enough to even consider it as a performance mark. The amount of power lost will be minimal. I suspect that the difference between the output of both speakers will be within 1/2 of a db. Or so little difference that you and 99.99% of others could never tell even if both speakers were right next to each other. The resultant change in frequency response will again be so little that if you did measure a difference, it was likely not because of cable length, but actually because of manufacturing tolerances.

Damping factor is really not even worth considering unless you are running subs or dealing with a critical listening environment. Critical listening means a silent room in which the listeners are there to critically evaluate the media. The losses in cables from length and gauge can be found online in the form of calculators, but again, the differences are usually so small with common cable runs that it really isn't worth beating your head against the wall.

Thx Luke...

[Ken Webster]

Just a note to add, as I recommended running a pair for 12 AWG cables from the same amp channel in my 2% example, you may as well just connect one speaker on each of these cables. This is still a parallel connection and is what I have sometimes done on our QSC amp which has binding posts and a Speakon for each channel output.  It's just easier to connect this way.  If your Amp only has a single output per channel, you will have to make up a short Y split cable.  Speakons limit the cable gauge you can directly connect, the splitter cable may have to be a somewhat smaller gauge cable but as it only needs to be a few cm long, it will not have a significant effect on the total cabling impedance or clarity.
Ken

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