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[Eric du Toit]

Primary goal - less bass on stage and/or more controllable bass on stage and still maintain a good solid low end in house.
I'm not unhappy with our current setup other than I have more bass on stage than I'd prefer, but it's not terrible.  I do DI the bass and feed it back through an Aux to the bass amp so I have control over the Markbass CMD121 amp too which is only there to provide enough stage volume for the upright (and sometimes electric) bass to hear and the group to stay together.

Current sub is the Mackie SRM1550 1200w 15" - not a bad box at all.
http://mackie.com/sites/default/files/PRODUCT%20RESOURCES/SPECS/Spec_Sheets/SRM1550_SS.pdf

QSC K212c Spec sheet here : https://www.qsc.com/live-sound/products/loudspeakers/powered-loudspeakers/ks-series-new/ks212c/ . Tops are 1000w. QSC K10 (non .2), monitors are 4x EV Zx1 and the crossover point for the old K10 tops is 100Hz when connected to the K212c

Music is bluegrass / gospel.  Venues are smaller churches (120 seat - 400 seat) and sometimes outdoor gatherings.

I target an indoor SPL of 85-90dB mid way back, outdoor may be a bit higher - 90-95dB but it's bluegrass so not rock concert levels.
Sometimes I can't place the sub directly in front of the stage/platform, but most of the time I'd be able to do that which should provide the most rear rejection on-stage right?  The last outdoor venue, I could have used more low-end to the audience but I couldn't because of the stage spillover.

[Mal Brown]

I’m curious about that box as well.  Not for sound co use really but in my personal vocal pop / lounge band.  We are pretty quiet and play a bunch of small spaces where our kw-181’s don’t really fit either the size or aesthetics of the room.  Hoping to be able to demo one sometime over the summer.

[Art Nadelman]

I’m curious about that box as well.  Not for sound co use really but in my personal vocal pop / lounge band.  We are pretty quiet and play a bunch of small spaces where our kw-181’s don’t really fit either the size or aesthetics of the room.  Hoping to be able to demo one sometime over the summer.

I had the same issue with my KW181's, plus the lead guitar player in the band I work for HATES the sound of bass on the stage.  So I purchased a couple of the KS212C's.  They're not bad.  Not as powerful as the KW181's.  But that's what you would expect with a 12" sub compared to an 18" sub.  They are good for added low end.  Definitely have a dramatic reduction in sound to the back.  They can't, however, give me a big kick like I was able to get with the KW's.  It's just too much for them to handle.  So when I need that big kick sound at a venue, it's my much larger dB Technologies cardioid subs that I have to go to.

But for the country clubs that this band plays 75% of their shows at, these are perfect.

Art

[Luke Geis]

Bluegrass is difficult usually because of the way it is historically reinforced. A single large diaphragm condenser placed in the center of the stage where a stereo deployed rig is doing the most coupling..... If keeping the low end content down on the stage is the ultimate goal, then the K212c is going to be better at it than the Mackie unit. As far as overall performance out front..... I don't think it will perform any better SPL and frequency range wise. At best it will sound better, but I don't think it will get much louder than before. Tit for tat, the two speakers are identical other than the cardiod nature of the K212c.

Not knowing exactly what you have going on I can't advise much more. Do you have two subs or a single one? If you have a need to reduce bottom end on one side of the stage and you only have one sub, place the sub on the side of the stage furthest from where you want to reduce low end. If you have a stereo deployed system with subs on both sides of the stage, the you will just need to find the spot where the most cancellation occurs and set the mic there. This will usually be in the 1/3rds between the subs.

I don't think the K212 is going to get you much further than the Mackie though. Logically speaking, if your goal is to get more low end out front and reduce it on stage, you are asking for cake and to it it too. The QSC will reduce low end content by 10db nominally ( It has its highest rejection at 70hz, but that doesn't mean that everything else is reduced that much ) and then you turn up the subs 6-10db out front to get the low end you want. You are now exactly where you were before. Same basic amount of low end content on the stage just with more SPL in the audience. Don't let the pretty picture QSC printed about the K212c fool you. The sub has its rejection set for 70hz, it will reduce the frequencies around that a bit too, but 50hz down and 100hz up it is not doing much rejection. The fix is to run a lower crossover point closer to 80hz, but you will still have 50hz and below unfettered in the sub. Turn up the sub and the low end comes up with it. I believe the K212c runs up to about 120hz, so it will have some mud in it that gets on the stage.

[Eric du Toit]

Bluegrass is difficult usually because of the way it is historically reinforced.

Good advice Luke.  Thanks for taking the time to share all that.   We do mic each individual instrument and vocal instead of the traditional LDC center stage so I'm able to tailor each instrument with compression, EQ, gate, LF roll off, etc.. and my upright bass has a RevSolo pickup which has great feedback rejection.  I'm not unhappy with the Mackie at all - it was $400 shipped to my door on a musician's friend stupid deal of the hour so it was well worth it.  Right now, I run the crossover at around 90Hz (it's a dial on the back of the sub without specific notches) to avoid some mud.  I'm still learning, but I made the mistake at a multi-group show of using an aux bus to DI all basses and then feed the back into my Mark Bass CMD212 for musicians on stage, but I didn't route the basses to the LR/Main so all the bass was coming from my poor little Mark Bass. 

Things are pretty good with what I've got - sometimes you just need to be content with what you have and learn how to make it perform as best as it can.

Thanks for the level set - I'll stick with my dirt cheap SRM1550 and quit looking for "better" when what I have is pretty good especially for what we do.
 

[Luke Geis]

Glad to help. I should re-iterate that the K212c will reduce some low end on stage, just not a whole lot. It won't unless you have a crossover though ( the k212 doesn't have a built in adjustable one, only a fixed one ). Cardiod is a new buzzword in our industry. It does and can work, but things have to tailored for its use to be effective.

I recently did a post about how using stereo deployed cardioid subs couple in the middle just like regular subs do with a diminished amount of low end on the stage. It works, but only for the upstage part of the stage, so singers up front are still getting it. A single cardiod sub even center stage will have marginal results if the stage is close and the frequncy range of the sub is large ( to me large is anything above 80-100hz. ). The reason being is that cardiod subs are really only effective at a cancelling a small range of frequencies. Because of that small range of rejection, there is little reduction in frequencies on either side that essentially bleed just like a normal sub would.

Here is a picture of a stereo deployed cardiod array. It factored for about a 20' wide stage and the frequency plot is set for 60 hz. As you can see, people up front and center are still getting hit pretty hard.

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