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Author Topic: Porta Church System  (Read 719 times)

Fred Dorado

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Porta Church System
« on: June 20, 2018, 06:44:32 pm »

We may be moving our services to a school near us. We are experiencing some growth and are thinking about holding services at a school across the street. Our building is fairly small and we did this for Easter and it worked out great.

We rented a system, which was great for a one time, but if we do this regularly, we would want our own and something faster and easier to setup.

Pictures of our Easter service below. That was about 250 people - right now we are about 140 between 2 services and would do 1 service for now. That event went well with ETX 15p mains and 4 PRX712 monitors. Had stage volume issues and would have like more low end and will most likely be using electric drums in future. We had a QU16 and AB168

We don't have a budget, which is what I am trying to figure out, but I am thinking about 8-10k, but that will also need to include a laptop and some misc like portable mic stands

Here is what I am thinking, might be an easy setup.

There is glass right behind the musicians so stage volume is an issue and not sure we are ready for in ears yet.

Allen and Heath SQ5 & DBX168 - DBX in rolling case placed near band

2 x Electrovoice - Evolve 50's for mains

5 x ????? for monitors - stage volume is an issue, I was thinking something small like a Mackie SRM150, but the extra outlets and the extra cables might be an issue. amps on the rack with the DB168 would simplify connections and single speaker cables would clean up a little.

So my questions

1. Would the 2 Evolve's be good for mains - flat floor, wide and not too deep room.

2. What would be a good monitor option?


thanks





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Dave Pluke

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2018, 09:51:40 pm »


Allen and Heath SQ5 & DBX168 - DBX in rolling case placed near band

Are you referring to a dbx compressor?  I can't imagine it would be necessary, given the SQ5 (as do other digital consoles) will have compression built-in.


So my questions

1. Would the 2 Evolve's be good for mains - flat floor, wide and not too deep room.

2. What would be a good monitor option?

I can't speak to the Evolves, but think you're on the right track with the speaker format (considering your room).  Make sure to demo before you purchase to make sure the system will be loud enough.

As to monitors, 5 wedges in that space would be a nightmare (and I LOVE wedges).  Something on the order of hotspots might be easier to control.  Or, try one wedge for the drummer and a (small) speaker on a stick on each side of the band.

But, before you leap, consider the ME 500 personal monitors.  I worked in a Church with a Midas M32 and Behringer P16 personal monitors and it sure made mixing easier.  Either system allows each musician to dial in their own mix.  I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at the acceptance rate.

Dave
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 01:07:07 am »

Yes why the DBX and why the A&H that has poor tablet support.  Maybe next year but can't recommend it now. 

The M32r will be familiar  to anyone with an x32 pedigree.

I dont anything about the EV's.

The concept of fitting a system to a budget is frought with compromises.  A professional advisor will have you set goals tjen design a system to meet thise goals.  Then you go and find the money. 





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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 06:21:08 am »

Fred, this is the perfect situation for in-ear monitors - no wedges to lug, significantly less stage volume.  The Sennheiser EW IEM G4 systems come in a two-receiver per transmitter option which puts the cost at around $600 per person plus in-ear buds.  To step into this, you could get a system or two for the folks that move around, and go wired for the back line if youíre willing to deal with the wires.  Behringer P1 units will plug directly into your stage box outputs and provide a headphone jack and volume control in a pack that can be worn on a belt and either be powered by 9v batteries or AC adapters.

There are lots of permutations that can work depending on budget, but after having done portable church a couple times over the years, I will suggest that money spent on logistics - in-ears instead of wedges, a rack instead of a pile of small items, self-powered speakers instead of amps+speakers, etc. is going to make you a lot more popular to the team that has to lug all the junk every week, even if that is at some significant cost. 

Itís been a couple years since I updated it, but I put together an example portable system that you may find helpful.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 06:23:58 am »

Are you referring to a dbx compressor?  I can't imagine it would be necessary, given the SQ5 (as do other digital consoles) will have compression built-in.

He means the A&H stagebox: https://www.allen-heath.com/remote-audio-sq/
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 06:27:38 am »

Yes why the DBX and why the A&H that has poor tablet support.  Maybe next year but can't recommend it now. 

The M32r will be familiar  to anyone with an x32 pedigree.

I dont anything about the EV's.

The SQ series is significantly more mixer than the X32/M32 which are starting to get long in the tooth.  Iím not up on the limitations of the tablet software for the SQ series, but unless thatís a deal-breaker, the SQ series is better in many ways. 

Iíve used the GLDs since they came out in 2012 and A&Hís tablet app for the GLD is very decent, so whatever limitations there may be at the moment will be solved eventually.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 02:17:26 pm »

A couple things -

I an thinking SQ5 because I really liked the GLD80 I put in my old church, and thought SQ5 would be similar and an upgrade from the QU series - Yes the A&H DBX168 stagebox

TJ - thanks for the link, I will read through it.

You are right, in ears would be easiest, but apparently they tried previously in the main building without success, and I am worried about the history, making the move etc and trying to make it as easy as possible on musicians.

the band is very different now and our worship leader has used them before, so it is a possibility.

I also saw Bose has some new small monitors that can run on battery or plug in. This might be an option.

As Dave said, floor wedges may be a bit much. We had 4 before and did ok, thinking more we have, less we have to have in each one and lower overall volume.

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Dave Pluke

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 02:34:03 pm »

He means the A&H stagebox: https://www.allen-heath.com/remote-audio-sq/

That makes a LOT more sense - thanks, TJ!

Dave
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 02:58:45 pm »

A couple things -

I an thinking SQ5 because I really liked the GLD80 I put in my old church, and thought SQ5 would be similar and an upgrade from the QU series - Yes the A&H DBX168 stagebox

TJ - thanks for the link, I will read through it.

You are right, in ears would be easiest, but apparently they tried previously in the main building without success, and I am worried about the history, making the move etc and trying to make it as easy as possible on musicians.

the band is very different now and our worship leader has used them before, so it is a possibility.

I also saw Bose has some new small monitors that can run on battery or plug in. This might be an option.

As Dave said, floor wedges may be a bit much. We had 4 before and did ok, thinking more we have, less we have to have in each one and lower overall volume.
One way of addressing in-ear-itis is to schedule a long tech rehearsal day to work through in-ear issues.  There's no doubt that it's an adjustment, but IMO now is a great time to try to tackle this, since you have other changes going on, and you can make the case for why they would be helpful now - less gear to lug, greatly reduced stage volume in the new room, etc.

Coaching them on how to communicate what they need may help a lot, too, as well as soloing their mixes to see what's going on.  I've found that even learning what to ask for in the in-ear mix is a skill that has to be learned.  Make sure people have musician-style isolating buds and not the typical iPhone-style buds.  That makes all the difference.

Younger folks will likely be more open to this than older folks.  Good luck - it really is worth it from many angles.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 05:57:54 pm »

Allen Heath has the ME series personal monitor system that integrates with the QU an the SQ series.
With your proposed total set up I can't see what you would gain...or really need that could not be done on the QU series and at least at this time the iPad app is better for the QU.
Get a QU pac and a AB168 if you need more than 16 channels and run it remotely Via Ipad and not even set up a FOH. Everything could be racked up and as plug and play as possible.

I would also invest in some pipe and drape to put up in front of the windows if that's where your are
always going to set, it will help the sound and everyone in the congregation will not be looking into the bright sun shining in the windows.

Corey Scogin

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2018, 06:30:02 pm »

If you use the AR2412 stage box, you can do wired IEMs for much cheaper. The 12 outputs will give you 5 stereo mixes + LR. An multi-channel headphone amp and some 25' extenders and you're set. Musicians can use their own ears or you can buy some cans for those that don't. That setup is much cheaper than wireless IEMs and potentially even cheaper than wedges. You'll just need an experienced mixing engineer to do IEM mixes well.

Edit: And you can optionally let the band mix themselves via phone or tablet apps.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2018, 07:16:01 pm »

If you use the AR2412 stage box, you can do wired IEMs for much cheaper. The 12 outputs will give you 5 stereo mixes + LR. An multi-channel headphone amp and some 25' extenders and you're set. Musicians can use their own ears or you can buy some cans for those that don't. That setup is much cheaper than wireless IEMs and potentially even cheaper than wedges. You'll just need an experienced mixing engineer to do IEM mixes well.

Edit: And you can optionally let the band mix themselves via phone or tablet apps.

Yep the Allen Heath Q You app works great for that and it's available for both Apple and Android.

Tim Weaver

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2018, 12:21:06 pm »

Where are you located? There are numerous and multitude of people willing to design, implement, and train you on these types of systems.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2018, 02:03:28 pm »

I would also invest in some pipe and drape to put up in front of the windows if that's where your are
always going to set, it will help the sound and everyone in the congregation will not be looking into the bright sun shining in the windows.

I get that you're facing the glass wall because that's where the architect of the school decided to put the screen.

But, even with pipe and drape, you still have an awful contrast problem between the lighting outside and the lighting inside and the brightness (dimness?) of the screen. It has to be fatiguing to sit there trying to watch the stage when your eyes can't properly adjust to a single lighting level. It's enough to make one wonder, "what were they thinking?"

I might still suggest pipe and drape (HEAVY drape, fire retardent of course, and not blocking egress) to control audio reflections off the glass wall, but have you considered turning the whole thing around or even 90 degrees left or right so the audience isn't facing the windows? Turning sideways could help with some of the reflection problem, too.

Acoustic solutions are almost always superior to electronic solutions.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 02:08:30 pm by Jonathan Johnson »
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Simon_Barrett

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2018, 03:33:29 pm »

...

Acoustic solutions are almost always superior to electronic solutions.

^^^ THIS!


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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2018, 09:56:58 pm »

I get that you're facing the glass wall because that's where the architect of the school decided to put the screen.

But, even with pipe and drape, you still have an awful contrast problem between the lighting outside and the lighting inside and the brightness (dimness?) of the screen. It has to be fatiguing to sit there trying to watch the stage when your eyes can't properly adjust to a single lighting level. It's enough to make one wonder, "what were they thinking?"

I might still suggest pipe and drape (HEAVY drape, fire retardent of course, and not blocking egress) to control audio reflections off the glass wall, but have you considered turning the whole thing around or even 90 degrees left or right so the audience isn't facing the windows? Turning sideways could help with some of the reflection problem, too.

Acoustic solutions are almost always superior to electronic solutions.

I'm not thrilled about having the glass wall at the back either from an audio reflection standpoint.
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2018, 12:08:00 pm »

Thanks. I think when they tried it before, they did use cheap headsets.

It is possible to do a "house" mic in portable setup to get congregation into in ears?

Most likely we will bring someone in to help with some training. 


One way of addressing in-ear-itis is to schedule a long tech rehearsal day to work through in-ear issues.  There's no doubt that it's an adjustment, but IMO now is a great time to try to tackle this, since you have other changes going on, and you can make the case for why they would be helpful now - less gear to lug, greatly reduced stage volume in the new room, etc.

Coaching them on how to communicate what they need may help a lot, too, as well as soloing their mixes to see what's going on.  I've found that even learning what to ask for in the in-ear mix is a skill that has to be learned.  Make sure people have musician-style isolating buds and not the typical iPhone-style buds.  That makes all the difference.

Younger folks will likely be more open to this than older folks.  Good luck - it really is worth it from many angles.

A few other things -

I am open to the QU series, but liked the greater flexibility of the GLD and though SQ would be similar.  We are right about the 16 channel mark, depending on week. I was also thinking stagebox as an easy way to get physical faders at back and connection at front in a rolling rack.


We would be open to moving the "stage" that first picture off to the left, behind the folded tables is a raise area where you see the railing and that is an option. Several reason we chose not to do it there this time, but definitely an option. Now that you mention it, looking at pictures, it may be a better long term choice.


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Dave Pluke

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2018, 02:44:13 pm »


It is possible to do a "house" mic in portable setup to get congregation into in ears?

Absolutely!  That's the rule rather than the exception.  The Ambient mic needn't be anything too fancy but, if you can afford an X-Y pair of small diaphragm condensers, all the better.

Dave
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Fred Dorado

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2018, 05:31:57 pm »

An then just basically play with it until you find a placement that works? I was also wondering about one of those floor boundary mics too

Absolutely!  That's the rule rather than the exception.  The Ambient mic needn't be anything too fancy but, if you can afford an X-Y pair of small diaphragm condensers, all the better.

Dave
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Porta Church System
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2018, 06:16:46 pm »

An then just basically play with it until you find a placement that works? I was also wondering about one of those floor boundary mics too

Yes.  First try locating at your FOH console and see if it's in synch with the rest of the sends.  Or, located at Front of Stage, pointing out.

I would think boundary mics might pick up unwanted rumble and stomping of feet.  More for Flamenco Dancers than Ambient House mics.

Dave
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