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[Paul McDermott]

For IEMS in a combiner use 3rd, 3tx and 5th order with a maximum IM window at 50MHz.  Use the standard models and do not use any manufacturer table entries, use all custom frequencies.  do all the IEM freqs first.

for wireless mics just use 3rd and 5th order not 3tx.

In WWB and IAS with ULXD and Axient-D if only calculates 2T30 any 5th generated by other devices will not be avoided. I have used a speedsheet to calculate these and import them into coordination software and I have added exclusion groups for this. Do you have any input on this Pete.

Band plan and put your iems in one spectrum area and wireless mics in another, ideally separated by a tv channel.  do not intermingle them.

Good advice

[Bob Charest]

What IM options did you use?

I've attached a jpeg showing the Evol G2 IEM characteristics and the IAS IM options.

For IEMS in a combiner use 3rd, 3tx and 5th order with a maximum IM window at 50MHz.  Use the standard models and do not use any manufacturer table entries, use all custom frequencies.  do all the IEM freqs first.

I do coordinate the IEMs before the mics, so that's one thing right I've done! :-)

for wireless mics just use 3rd and 5th order not 3tx.

I've not been doing that - thanks!
So, the method would be to coordinate the IEM frequencies using 3rd, 3tx, & 5th order then coordinate the mics without 3tx, correct?

Band plan and put your iems in one spectrum area and wireless mics in another, ideally separated by a tv channel.  do not intermingle them.

Got it. Given the different frequency usage between ULXD G50 and Evol G2 A band that's happening anyway.

Mic antennas should be at least 15' from any TX antenna and 6' to the nearest other RX antenna.  use low power for the IEM, especially if your coverage area is less than the stage area.

Often, we don't have 15' to separate TX from RX, but usually 10'. Given the directional nature of the PWS helical, I'm separating as much as I can. Would it be worth putting the helical in the downstage stage-right corner as opposed to somewhat adjacent to the RX antennas in downstage stage-left? ( I'd attached a stage plot in a previous reply.)

after setting your frequencies, war game the entire set.  Turn on everything with mics at least 6' apart spread out on the stage.  Turn of each tx and with a spectrum analyzer look closely at the freq for any underlying carriers and check that the RX rf indicators show no rf.  If they do change that freq and start the entire wargame again.

Often, we only have about 3' or 4' between mics on the stages we work. Got it the war game method.

Thank you very much for your help with this!

Best regards,
Bob Charest

[Bob Charest]

Hey Bob,
Glad I was of some help.

What is the highest frequency in use on your IEM’s?  the closer you pack your IEMs together the smaller the spectral footprint of the IMD they create. There is also no reason no to move the farther away like above 540Mhz. With just a few devices you can be more conservative with your coordination.

Our highest frequency for IEMs in this coordination is 535.975. We coordinate 20 or 21 wireless frequencies for our gigs.

The Power Setting on a G3 is in the menu under Advanced/RF Power. I am not sure about the G2 but the difference between 10mW and 20 mW in only 3dB. I wouldn’t worry about it if you have to open the units up.

The PA821 does not add any gain.

To troubleshoot or if the venue is to tight to get distance between your Tx and Rx antennas you could put a 1/2 wave whip on your PA821A and see if that helps.

That's a good testing idea about the 1/2 wave whip - will do.

If you are using WWB you can use inclusion groups to place your devices in the exact spectral band you want. There is a link in the thread “Wireless Workbench How to do everything videos”, watch the one on inclusion groups.

I've not been using WWB, as I'm comfortable with IAS. When messing around with it today, somehow, I couldn't get all 12 ULXD mics to coordinate. It was odd, and I don't yet trust my use of the tool, so I'll wait until I'm sure of what I'm doing.

As a rule of thumb you should have your Tx and Tx antennas  at least10 feet apart. You can also position the Helical a little more on stage to keep your Rx antennas out of the coverage of the “hot” part of the Tx antenna.

We're close to that usually - sometimes the distances are less than ideal... more like 6' when the venue doesn't allocate enough space for us.

I will be performing some testing of the impact of Tx antennas on the creation of IMD in antenna splitters later this week. It will also cover how the distance and position between antennas, Power of transmitters, and the third order intercept point affect the IMD creation.
When I publish the results on my website I will post to this thread.

I look forward to seeing your results, and thank you very much for helping me with this, Paul.

Best regards,
Bob Charest

[Jordan Wolf]

Bob,

For what reason(s) do you guys use wireless mics compared to wired mics?

[Bob Charest]

Bob,

For what reason(s) do you guys use wireless mics compared to wired mics?

Hi Jordan,

It's a presentation element for us. We're quite interactive and individuals go out into the audience on a regular basis. Although I play keyboard, there are several tunes where I leave it and either go stage center or out into the audience.

When our bass player fronts on a tune, my wife (one of the singers) moves his mic to the front stand. The same procedure for when our guitarists fronts; the other female singer moves his mic from the backline to the front. At times, our male lead singer drops back near me when my wife and the other female lead singer are doing tunes together.

It breaks that static dull presentation... it's helpful for us.

A bit of a swerve, but here goes...

Back in the day, we had music stands with wired stand lights, wedge monitors, and wired mics. To neaten things up, we used to have to carefully lay cords out and tape down... just in time for one of the client's presenter ask about moving everything so they could project a slide presentation... not fun.

With the music stands, the first thing we did was implement a battery-powered LED stand light that I designed. The light provided much better coverage, and it eliminated AC wires. the color temperature of the light was about 3500 Kelvin, more like an incandescent bulb. We still use them in the rehearsal space. Later on, we eliminated chart binders went with all iPads for music charts & lyrics. For the singers, we just have one iPad on stage left, and one on stage right. That was a good thing as it eliminated a barrier between us and our guests.

For our monitors, we went with IEMs and were (for the most part) happy. It is certainly nice to pack all the IEM packs in a small case as opposed to loading the wedges. It also improved our ability to project a unified mix with greatly lessened stage volume. Then, bringing in electronic drums with Zildjian Gen 16 cymbals allowed us to play at a very controlled volume, although the Gen16 gear is a PITA in the ruggedness/road ready department.

Wanting more mobility, we went with wireless mics. It's not always the easiest thing to do, but, as I mentioned,  it aids the presentation of the band tremendously, and not only in performance. Our stage setup is very clean, and it sends a message to venue personnel, planners, and our clients that we sweat the small stuff. That's a good message, and we're rounding out 20 years of this one band, so something's working correctly.

End swerve... 

Best regards,
Bob

[Ike Zimbel]

Often, we don't have 15' to separate TX from RX, but usually 10'. Given the directional nature of the PWS helical, I'm separating as much as I can. Would it be worth putting the helical in the downstage stage-right corner as opposed to somewhat adjacent to the RX antennas in downstage stage-left? ( I'd attached a stage plot in a previous reply.)

Often, we only have about 3' or 4' between mics on the stages we work. Got it the war game method.

Thank you very much for your help with this!

Best regards,
Bob Charest

I've just skimmed this thread, but the one thing that pops out at me is using the PWS domed helical on a small stage. These are wonderful antennas, I'm using four of them among the 30 or so antennas (Tx and Rx) I'm using on my current gig, BUT, on a small stage they may be too much rig for the gig. One simple test of this theory is to try turning it around to face away from the stage when you are having issues. Another test is to simply use a less efficient antenna...like a whip off the front of the PA821.
Again, I've just skimmed this thread, but if you are experiencing the issue in your IEM packs, remember that the problem can be occurring inside the front end of the pack, IOW, the pack's receiver so if they are getting slammed by the extra gain from the domed helical, they will generate the IMD inside the pack. Remember that IAS does not eliminate IMD, it just predicts it and offers frequencies around it, and that absolute power levels determine how much IMD is actually present, or more accurately potentially present.

[Terry Martin]

There is some great info here - thanks guys. 

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[Bob Charest]

I've just skimmed this thread, but the one thing that pops out at me is using the PWS domed helical on a small stage. These are wonderful antennas, I'm using four of them among the 30 or so antennas (Tx and Rx) I'm using on my current gig, BUT, on a small stage they may be too much rig for the gig. One simple test of this theory is to try turning it around to face away from the stage when you are having issues. Another test is to simply use a less efficient antenna...like a whip off the front of the PA821.
Again, I've just skimmed this thread, but if you are experiencing the issue in your IEM packs, remember that the problem can be occurring inside the front end of the pack, IOW, the pack's receiver so if they are getting slammed by the extra gain from the domed helical, they will generate the IMD inside the pack. Remember that IAS does not eliminate IMD, it just predicts it and offers frequencies around it, and that absolute power levels determine how much IMD is actually present, or more accurately potentially present.

Hi Ike,

Thanks for that thought - it's a good one. The artifacts I've mentioned only happen on two of the packs: mine and the male lead singer. I'm nearest to the helical, and he's center stage.

I only get the noise when I go to center stage, not when I'm near the helical.

I'm going to try your suggestion on Saturday and will let you know what I get. I've also got Sennheiser A2003 and A1031-U paddles and will test using them as well.

Given the stage location where the noise is most prominent, I wonder if I'm getting a reflection from the cymbals. I'm going to try several placements to eliminate that as a possibility.

Thanks again for your help!

Best regards,
Bob Charest

[Paul McDermott]

I only get the noise when I go to center stage, not when I'm near the helical.

I'm going to try your suggestion on Saturday and will let you know what I get. I've also got Sennheiser A2003 and A1031-U paddles and will test using them as well.

Do each member of the band always use the same belt packs? Try switching beltpachs with someone eve in the band and sync to your frequency. The antennas on the belt packs can become damaged, I have had this problem with G3’s in the past. I usually Cary an extra IEM belt pack for my Cue/backup

[Bob Charest]

Do each member of the band always use the same belt packs? Try switching beltpachs with someone eve in the band and sync to your frequency. The antennas on the belt packs can become damaged, I have had this problem with G3’s in the past. I usually Cary an extra IEM belt pack for my Cue/backup

They do each have their own, and the singer and I swapped once (and synced to our original frequencies) trying to get to the root of the problem. He also used my pack and frequency this past Friday and I used his. He and I were both still getting noise when at center stage.

I've replaced the antennas on both packs previously (I still have 12 left that I got from Old Lyme a number of years ago.)

I think I'm chasing something broken or an environment element...

Thanks again,

Best regards,
Bob Charest

[ProSoundWeb Community]