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Author Topic: HP filter in tops or bottoms?  (Read 3900 times)

Debbie Dunkley

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HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« on: May 19, 2018, 05:09:35 PM »

Today I checked something out that I had done about 3-1/2 years ago when I first purchased my Yamaha DSR112's. I just needed reminding.
As you all know I have my DSR's working again and I am back to using my DSR/PRX718 combo in smaller places.

I first started using this set up, as I said about 3-1/2 years ago and until then I had been using the PRX718xlf's with my PRX612's for FOH. The PRX612's did not have built in HP filter so I had no choice but to use the HP in the subs and I got good results.
The DSR's have HP also so when they arrived, I figured I'd experiment  bit and tried it a couple of different ways using the HP filter in the subs vs the tops. I suppose at that time I must have come to the conclusion I preferred using the HP in the subs so that is how I have been using it ever since.

I tried it again today and came to the same conclusion ( thank goodness) but I suppose my point is that I was surprised just how much difference it makes.
I used a mono recording of a bunch of different style music ( didn't use a live recording but might at some point) and had a DSR112 and a PRX718xlf each side.
First I set up each side the same and played some music so I could make sure there were no other noticeable variables, placement etc and then I set one side HP sub and the other HP top.  Switching from one to the other was interesting.
We both noticed that with produced dance type music,  there didn't seem too much difference - other than our perception being that the HP top side almost sounded scooped with an enhanced top and bottom end.
However, it was rock songs that made the difference more noticeable and made it more obvious what was happening.
It became clear it was the low mids ( or upper lows???) that were mainly affected. We could both hear a missing portion of the EQ spectrum in the HP top side and it sounded somewhere in that low mid region which would explain the perceived enhanced top and bottom end we heard with dance music.
We went back and forth using different songs and once we had concluded this difference, we could hear the missing portion in each song from that point on.  I am unsure why choosing the crossover in the tops or the subs would make this much difference when they are ironcally both set at 120hz from factory - yet that is what we heard.
I then did one more quick check and compared the HP sub side to the other side set using no HP. Some folks here have said they use their system this way and get good results. However, we found it muddied up the overlapped freq band a little too much so not something we will be using.
Just another observation I thought I'd share.
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Steve Garris

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2018, 05:27:18 PM »

Today I checked something out that I had done about 3-1/2 years ago when I first purchased my Yamaha DSR112's. I just needed reminding.
As you all know I have my DSR's working again and I am back to using my DSR/PRX718 combo in smaller places.

I first started using this set up, as I said about 3-1/2 years ago and until then I had been using the PRX718xlf's with my PRX612's for FOH. The PRX612's did not have built in HP filter so I had no choice but to use the HP in the subs and I got good results.
The DSR's have HP also so when they arrived, I figured I'd experiment  bit and tried it a couple of different ways using the HP filter in the subs vs the tops. I suppose at that time I must have come to the conclusion I preferred using the HP in the subs so that is how I have been using it ever since.

I tried it again today and came to the same conclusion ( thank goodness) but I suppose my point is that I was surprised just how much difference it makes.
I used a mono recording of a bunch of different style music ( didn't use a live recording but might at some point) and had a DSR112 and a PRX718xlf each side.
First I set up each side the same and played some music so I could make sure there were no other noticeable variables, placement etc and then I set one side HP sub and the other HP top.  Switching from one to the other was interesting.
We both noticed that with produced dance type music,  there didn't seem too much difference - other than our perception being that the HP top side almost sounded scooped with an enhanced top and bottom end.
However, it was rock songs that made the difference more noticeable and made it more obvious what was happening.
It became clear it was the low mids ( or upper lows???) that were mainly affected. We could both hear a missing portion of the EQ spectrum in the HP top side and it sounded somewhere in that low mid region which would explain the perceived enhanced top and bottom end we heard with dance music.
We went back and forth using different songs and once we had concluded this difference, we could hear the missing portion in each song from that point on.  I am unsure why choosing the crossover in the tops or the subs would make this much difference when they are ironcally both set at 120hz from factory - yet that is what we heard.
I then did one more quick check and compared the HP sub side to the other side set using no HP. Some folks here have said they use their system this way and get good results. However, we found it muddied up the overlapped freq band a little too much so not something we will be using.
Just another observation I thought I'd share.

Regarding the 718, the spec's state a 100 Hz DSP internal crossover, and a 120 Hz analog "Loop out" crossover. What does this mean?

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Jay Marr

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 05:34:55 PM »

I tried the built in HP on the DSRs and compared to using the Xover in my X32 (somewhere around 90-100).
I liked 90-100 much better.

I've never read up on it, but I'm guessing the HP on the DSR was built more for when used in wedge position, rather than when using with a sub?
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2018, 05:36:21 PM »

Regarding the 718, the spec's state a 100 Hz DSP internal crossover, and a 120 Hz analog "Loop out" crossover. What does this mean?

I called JBL on this when I first got them and asked if there was a gap between 100hz and 120hz. I was told no due to the crossover slopes used. Although it appears there is a gap between 100hz and 120hz,this is not the case and the acoustical crossover points meet.  ( I hope I got that right - LOL)
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Steve Garris

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2018, 03:07:02 PM »

I tried the built in HP on the DSRs and compared to using the Xover in my X32 (somewhere around 90-100).
I liked 90-100 much better.

I've never read up on it, but I'm guessing the HP on the DSR was built more for when used in wedge position, rather than when using with a sub?

Agreed on that. The box makes an excellent wedge with that switch engaged.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2018, 03:39:24 PM »

I tried the built in HP on the DSRs and compared to using the Xover in my X32 (somewhere around 90-100).
I liked 90-100 much better.

I've never read up on it, but I'm guessing the HP on the DSR was built more for when used in wedge position, rather than when using with a sub?

Although this might be a better use of the HP filter, page 8 of the manual suggests this selection should be used :
" If you connect the speaker directly to a microphone or use the speaker with a subwoofer."
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Jay Marr

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2018, 03:43:10 PM »

Although this might be a better use of the HP filter, page 8 of the manual suggests this selection should be used :
" If you connect the speaker directly to a microphone or use the speaker with a subwoofer."

Thanks for looking it up, I probably should have at some point.
So much like your findings.  I don't feel that is the best Xover point when used with a sub.
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Luke Geis

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2018, 06:34:24 PM »

Just so I am clear what you mean.

In option A: you utilize the internal crossover that the subwoofer has built in.

In option B: you utilize the crossover / HP filter that the main speaker has ( the DSR ).

If I had to make a guess, it would be that the biggest difference you notice may be because of the DSR's DSP. The woofer in the DSR will have a little bit of latency so that it properly aligns to the horn. Also, is the filter that the DSR uses a HP filter or is it actually a crossover filter? If it is a simple HP filter it likely doesn't have a steep slope, which means more low end energy below the knee and less phase shift due to the low pole count of the filter. This may mean that it melds better with the subs non defeatable internal crossover. If it is actually a crossover filter type slope, it may be rolling off too many lows too quickly to meld well with the subs and the added latency of the mains may be just right to make that hole in the spectrum even more noticeable ( more cancellation )

My guess would be that the internal crossover the subs have is better suited ( more ideal given its own processing ) to making any other given main speaker top work with it. Be it a less steep slope, different electrical crossover points, or added delay for the mains?

If I don't have matching tops and subs, I will tend to just run the tops full range and use external processing to get things where I need them. I often don't like how high many subs are crossed over at. I prefer to run them at 80hz or lower, so it is a little bit of listening and playing around till it just sounds right; Which in all honesty is usually the best route.
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2018, 07:54:22 PM »

Just so I am clear what you mean.

In option A: you utilize the internal crossover that the subwoofer has built in.

In option B: you utilize the crossover / HP filter that the main speaker has ( the DSR ).

If I had to make a guess, it would be that the biggest difference you notice may be because of the DSR's DSP. The woofer in the DSR will have a little bit of latency so that it properly aligns to the horn. Also, is the filter that the DSR uses a HP filter or is it actually a crossover filter? If it is a simple HP filter it likely doesn't have a steep slope, which means more low end energy below the knee and less phase shift due to the low pole count of the filter. This may mean that it melds better with the subs non defeatable internal crossover. If it is actually a crossover filter type slope, it may be rolling off too many lows too quickly to meld well with the subs and the added latency of the mains may be just right to make that hole in the spectrum even more noticeable ( more cancellation )

My guess would be that the internal crossover the subs have is better suited ( more ideal given its own processing ) to making any other given main speaker top work with it. Be it a less steep slope, different electrical crossover points, or added delay for the mains?

If I don't have matching tops and subs, I will tend to just run the tops full range and use external processing to get things where I need them. I often don't like how high many subs are crossed over at. I prefer to run them at 80hz or lower, so it is a little bit of listening and playing around till it just sounds right; Which in all honesty is usually the best route.

Yes Luke exactly.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.

I must say I get fantastic results running the PRX subs with the DSR's using the sub HP filters and although an external crossover might give me more control over the crossover points (and I do still have crossovers I could use).  I'm not sure I would want to go to that extra work and might not notice enough difference to make it worthwhile anyway.
One of the reasons I went the way of the powered system was to embrace the KISS. :-*
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Luke Geis

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Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 12:13:05 PM »

One of the many reasons I am in Love with the B-Ringer X32 / Midas M32 platform is because it has processing built in. It sounds good enough for what I got going on and I don't have to bring a rack full of stuff. While I am not saying go out and get an X32/ M32 mixer, it is something to consider if you are looking to get another one. The ability to use any combination of speakers, process them and save the settings is rather nice.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: HP filter in tops or bottoms?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2018, 12:13:05 PM »


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