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Author Topic: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up  (Read 1060 times)

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 09:36:39 am »

I agree, Mike.  I've worked with lapels in this room for a long time-I much prefer a speaker to use a handheld-or we have a dPA, but we try to accomodate.  That is why I prioritized and got the room acceptable then monitors are what they are. 

There was no feedback suppression and just a little compression in the mix.

I have wondered if monitors were just covered by the room before-but this was the first time I had real time information "feedback" from the platform telling me they were good, then went away-knowing nothing had changed.

I've wondered about the psycoacoustic aspect-since our brain expects to hear one source-do we just ignore the "extra" sounds and unconsciously focus-much like we can listen to a single person in an otherwise noisy room?
The pastor of the church we attended previously liked a lot of monitor wedge.  Every week was a dance between house and monitor levels - as the house rises, the proportion of 'far field' sound increases - the midrange off the mains that hits the stage, the wall bounce, etc. 

If you've already crossed the point of diminishing returns of system and channel EQ, the most practical solution is to help the pastor see the tradeoffs and suggest that he trust you to make him sound good even if he sounds a little funny to himself, and/or switch from a lav to an earset mic.  More radical solutions would be in-ears for the pastor, moving the pulpit position upstage away from the house speakers, etc.

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David Pedd

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 09:52:47 am »

I bet this has more to do with psychology than physics...

No doubt there's truth in that.

Can you imagine that Billy Sunday preached to thousands with no PA?  Just a "sounding board" behind him to help "amplify" his voice?

Electronics has made pastors/preachers into wimps who no longer know how to project their voice and rely on electronics.

Just this past Sunday, our SS teacher got up to start his class.  He has a mouse voice and started with "Can you hear me?"  Of course, even in this small room those in the back had a hard time.  I spoke up from the sound booth and told him "Speak LOUDER".  He did and all was fine.

<soap box:  OFF>
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Keith Broughton

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 09:53:54 am »

Just for my understanding, why does the pastor need to hear himself in a monitor in the first place?
Seems to me many corporate presenters can get their message across just fine without monitors.
I just completed a church install and the pastor wanted monitors. That's what he got but I just don't get it ::)

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I don't care enough to be apathetic

Kevin Maxwell

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 10:09:22 am »

I can understand wanting a little bit of oneself in the monitors. It depends on the house sound system. I got up to test a mic on a stand for a gig that was just people speaking and was surprised how muddy it sounded on stage without anything up in the monitors in this auditorium. But it is a losing battle putting much in the monitors with a Lav. When doing corporate work I really liked when we had a good line array in the room because it was dead on stage I didn’t hear the back of the array giving me mud on the stage. As long as it is in a room where the array is hung in such a way as to not be bouncing back from a rear wall.   
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: &quot;Disappearing&quot; monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 12:39:56 pm »

No doubt there's truth in that.

Can you imagine that Billy Sunday preached to thousands with no PA?  Just a "sounding board" behind him to help "amplify" his voice?

Electronics has made pastors/preachers into wimps who no longer know how to project their voice and rely on electronics.

Just this past Sunday, our SS teacher got up to start his class.  He has a mouse voice and started with "Can you hear me?"  Of course, even in this small room those in the back had a hard time.  I spoke up from the sound booth and told him "Speak LOUDER".  He did and all was fine.

<soap box:  OFF>

In fairness, Billy Sunday was not competing with air handlers and HID lighting-and was speaking in rooms designed for no amplification to people who were used to listening and paying attention much better than people today.

The pastors I have worked with here project well and that is not the issue.  It is usually visiting speakers-one other aspect I fought later in the same conference was a speaker on a handheld mic, again the pastor sitting on the platform wanted it at a level he felt comfortable with-but everytime we pushed the level up, the visiting speaker backed out of the mic a little more-obviously a losing battle until everyone is on the same page.  But that also points to Keith's question-it is really just a matter of personal preference.  I've seen more people back off due to loud monitors-in fact I've had some cases whee I could not get enough mains until I backed the monitors off to get the speaker to speak up.

I do wonder if wanting to mask back wall reflections is part of the desire in our room.  The back "wall" is really hardwood roll up doors (circa 1910's I think)- I have had singers comment that they found themselves singing with their echo off of the doors.  I find a delayed reproduction of what I am saying very disconcerting (for instance talking on a digital radio with another receiver in hearing distance.) I can see how that would get distracting and tiring during a sermon.  Eliminating the doors is not an option-we use them too often.

Quite frankly, part of the reason for my post was that if I can have a conversation and explain what is happening that will do more to solve the issue than a ton of electronics.
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Steve Swaffer

David Pedd

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 01:51:36 pm »

Just for my understanding, why does the pastor need to hear himself in a monitor in the first place?
Seems to me many corporate presenters can get their message across just fine without monitors.
I just completed a church install and the pastor wanted monitors. That's what he got but I just don't get it ::)

Once they do hear themselves it does help them.  I've never needed them myself but our current pastor likes to hear himself.

Same reason (I think) that radio announcers wear headphones.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 02:14:28 pm »

Personally I still don't get why some people insist on using a lapel mic and then complain about sound levels, monitors, ect. unless by chance your in a perfect acoustical space and how many of those do we really work in. You don't need to spend $600 on a a headset either, many of the $100 give or take choices work really well and there are a few crazy cheap models that actually work well.

TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: &quot;Disappearing&quot; monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 02:29:56 pm »

I do wonder if wanting to mask back wall reflections is part of the desire in our room.  The back "wall" is really hardwood roll up doors (circa 1910's I think)- I have had singers comment that they found themselves singing with their echo off of the doors.  I find a delayed reproduction of what I am saying very disconcerting (for instance talking on a digital radio with another receiver in hearing distance.) I can see how that would get distracting and tiring during a sermon.  Eliminating the doors is not an option-we use them too often.
That's certainly something that would be helpful for talent comfort and overall intelligibility in your room.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: "Disappearing" monitor when mains are brought up
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 02:34:41 pm »

Just for my understanding, why does the pastor need to hear himself in a monitor in the first place?
Seems to me many corporate presenters can get their message across just fine without monitors.
I just completed a church install and the pastor wanted monitors. That's what he got but I just don't get it ::)
"Need" is probably a loaded word.  "Rely on" and "are comforted by" are probably more accurate.  Reducing the desire for monitors comes down to practicing that element of speaking skill; something probably not adequately covered in most seminaries.

I do the vast majority of my work in the church-related world.  I was on an event recently that was a political gathering, and I noted that unlike some experiences in the church world, the folks that spoke did not have any problems making themselves heard, and were very good at yanking the lectern mic wherever they wanted it.  :)
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