ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down

Author Topic: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?  (Read 1103 times)

Stephen Kirby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2899
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 04:03:41 pm »

I'd keep your QSC subs.  You really need four 18s or something like an Orbit Shifter or TH118 to keep up with a DSR.  Having four singles gives you the option of leaving two at home if you don't need that much.

Some folks here like the PRX subs for the weight but again you need 4 of them to keep up.

I'm waiting to see how people get on with pairing DSRs with the JTR Captivator 212.  I suspect you'll need 4 of them to keep up with a pair of DSRs flat out or outdoors.  Cost is up there but there's a definite weight savings with the flexibility to bring one or two pairs.
Logged

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1304
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 09:18:37 pm »

I'd keep your QSC subs.  You really need four 18s or something like an Orbit Shifter or TH118 to keep up with a DSR.  Having four singles gives you the option of leaving two at home if you don't need that much.

Some folks here like the PRX subs for the weight but again you need 4 of them to keep up.

I'm waiting to see how people get on with pairing DSRs with the JTR Captivator 212.  I suspect you'll need 4 of them to keep up with a pair of DSRs flat out or outdoors.  Cost is up there but there's a definite weight savings with the flexibility to bring one or two pairs.

My thoughts exactly.

The only strange thing I don't really like about the KW181 is that it doesn't have a cross-over built into the sub.  QSC put the cross-over into their tops only.  The KW181 output is a full range signal.  If you tried to use these with the DSR112 tops, you would need a cross-over to keep the LF out of your tops.  It is really a shame, because aside from this .... weirdness, the KW181 is a really nice sub.

I would agree with those here that said they would opt for a scaleable system.  A single DSR is match for any pair of subs out there .... except for higher end subs like the afore mentioned TH118 ..... which is truly a beast among subs.

I think it is fair to say that pretty much everyone on the forum is waiting patiently to get a first hand listen to the new Yamaha DZR series.  It is pretty clear that the DZR is the next generation of the DSR series.  One thing I would point out is that the new subs have a very cool feature of being able to be setup center clustered in a group of 3.  The center sub is then turned around and the DSP setup so that the 3 subs act in concert to achieve a significant increase in SPL over 2 separate subs.

My (rough) guess is that you get an added 3db from the additional speaker, and then another 3db from coupling of the 3 cabinets being clustered together.  The DSP may even squeeze out another 2db if they are clever.  So lets say 6-8db for the price of a single additional sub and a couple of ethernet cables.  I am looking forward to having someone put an SPL meter on this one to get accurate values ;)

You should take a look at the manual on these to see the details.
Logged

Tom Roche

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Behind the Zion Curtain
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 09:38:54 pm »

The only strange thing I don't really like about the KW181 is that it doesn't have a cross-over built into the sub.  QSC put the cross-over into their tops only.  The KW181 output is a full range signal.  If you tried to use these with the DSR112 tops, you would need a cross-over to keep the LF out of your tops.  It is really a shame, because aside from this .... weirdness, the KW181 is a really nice sub.

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.
Logged

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1304
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 10:32:19 pm »

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.
You are correct.

I guess I have been running mine for so long in the current config (sub 90Hz out, top full range), that I forgot.

I did try both setups (using full range out from sub, HPF on tops) when I first got them.  I really missed the punch between 90 and 120 when I did it like this though.  The DSR112 has a wonderful round punch in that frequency range that just doesn't seem to come through when you leave that to the sub ..... or at least my subs (PRX618XLF).

You are correct though.  That would work.
Logged

kel mcguire

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 369
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2018, 11:55:26 am »

I have the HPR181i, which have the 100hz crossover outputs. Comes in handy.
Logged

Rick Powell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 725
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2018, 12:30:54 pm »

...It is pretty clear that the DZR is the next generation of the DSR series.  One thing I would point out is that the new subs have a very cool feature of being able to be setup center clustered in a group of 3.  The center sub is then turned around and the DSP setup so that the 3 subs act in concert to achieve a significant increase in SPL over 2 separate subs.
together.  The DSP may even squeeze out another 2db if they are clever.  So lets say 6-8db for the price of a single additional sub and a couple of ethernet cables.  I am looking forward to having someone put an SPL meter on this one to get accurate values ;)

My (rough) guess is that you get an added 3db from the additional speaker, and then another 3db from coupling of the 3 cabinets being clustered
You should take a look at the manual on these to see the details.

I did take a look at the manual and it just sounds like normal cardioid arrangement settings (they have settings for a 1 forward+1 rear, and a 2 forward+1 rear), not something that would boost the low end to superhuman levels. Usually used to provide forward directionality by cancelling bass frequencies on stage. The experts here have said that 2+1 cardioid does not provide a boost in forward volume as compared to three forward-facing subs. It is a nice feature to have for flexibility, rather than having to have polarity-flipping turnaround cords, etc.

The setting switches of normal, bass boost and low boost are also a function of Hoffman's Iron law within this size of enclosure (low, compact, loud - pick 2 of 3). Even with the low boost, you are down about 10dB at 30 Hz, a decent but not earth shattering sub for its size. The bass boost sacrifices a little low end for a hump in the 60Hz range.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 12:51:47 pm by Rick Powell »
Logged

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1304
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2018, 06:44:23 pm »

I did take a look at the manual and it just sounds like normal cardioid arrangement settings (they have settings for a 1 forward+1 rear, and a 2 forward+1 rear), not something that would boost the low end to superhuman levels. Usually used to provide forward directionality by cancelling bass frequencies on stage. The experts here have said that 2+1 cardioid does not provide a boost in forward volume as compared to three forward-facing subs. It is a nice feature to have for flexibility, rather than having to have polarity-flipping turnaround cords, etc.

The setting switches of normal, bass boost and low boost are also a function of Hoffman's Iron law within this size of enclosure (low, compact, loud - pick 2 of 3). Even with the low boost, you are down about 10dB at 30 Hz, a decent but not earth shattering sub for its size. The bass boost sacrifices a little low end for a hump in the 60Hz range.
Hi Rick,

I need to do some research.  Running subs in cardioid mode seems to be more of a "keep the LF off the stage" feature rather than raising SPL feature.  In fact, from what little I have read so far, looks like you actually lose some SPL and LF in the deal.
Logged

Luke Geis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1486
    • Owner of Endever Music Production's
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2018, 08:52:57 pm »

There are two ways to do cardioid subs. One couples in the front completely and the other does steel a little SPL and can cause some loss in the upper low end in the forward side. The later is better at reducing more lows in the rearward plane however.

If you can imagine a rear facing sub as being your start point, you can delay the rear sub for maximum rejection at pretty much all frequencies in the rearward plane, or you can delay the front speakers to couple with the rear facing subs forward energy, losing effective reduction in the rearward plane.

Because the rear facing sub is polarity inverted, the driver is moving in the same direction as the forward facing subs, but in the rearward plane is ahead in time. Delaying it a few ms can make it so that it is 180* out of phase with the forward facing subs rearward energy, creating maximum reduction in the rearward plane. In the forward plane, the rear facing sub is only out of phase by several degree's and therefore there is some cancellations at frequencies which are within that degree of phase / time. Being roughly 3-4' off in time after distance and delay is factored, the typical area where most reduction occurs is around 100hz and higher. Most cardioid sub arrays are crossed over closer to 80hz to help mitigate that phenomenon.

 
Logged
I don't understand how you can't hear your self

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1304
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2018, 09:42:57 pm »

Thanks Luke.

Just putting 2 subs side by side "clustered" I thought generally gave you 3db from the extra sub, and 3db from the additional cabinet coupling.  I seem to recall this from somewhere, but can't recall where.

Adding a 3rd sub would then likely add .... less than another 3db would be my guess? .... and even less added coupling.
Logged

Mike Karseboom

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
Re: With subs, any advantage of DSR115 over 112?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2018, 11:22:05 pm »

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.


Those built in crossover functions are certainly handy but my experience is that it works best within the specific manufacturer's product group.  That is the overall frequency response  is fairly smooth and, potentially more important,  the phase alignment around the acoustic crossover lines up.


When you start mixing boxes from different manufactures, or even mixing different lines from the same manufacturer, those responses around the crossover may not be optimum.  The only way to tell is to measure it. 


Of course that does not mean it doesn't sound "good".  But sometimes that last bit of correction enhances the overall clarity and impact to a noticeable degree.  Realistically it is a refinement more for your own enjoyment than something  the unwashed masses would recognize or appreciate.


I mix different subs and tops a lot so typically use external processing.  I wish there were more powered boxes that allowed you to defeat the crossover.  I worked  with some Turbosound Sienna 18" subs recently that were pretty nice but I could not defeat the low pass on the subs.  I could only adjust it to different set frequencies, none of which were what I was after.
Logged
--Mike
"If you're not confused, you don't know what is going on"

Live Sound for the Mt. Shasta area
http://www.shastalivesound.com
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.058 seconds with 23 queries.