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[kel mcguire]

I'm seeing the rebates and expect that we might see additional cuts on the DSR line. I'd love a pretty loud one-top solution for a number of the gigs I do…and I'm downsizing. The 15" incarnation VS the 12" of MI powered speakers seem to always have a couple dB extra SPL but that spec is never correspond to a frequency.
So, a question:

Would there be a discernible difference in sheer volume when using subs at the typical 100hz Xover with DSR115 over 112? I'd rather lift the 12s but a couple dB would probably be worth it, especially if the price keeps dropping. Or would that couple/few dB be at or below Xover. If it was in the vocal/instrument range, that makes a difference to me.

[Chris Grimshaw]

If push comes to shove, the 15"s will have a bit more output in the 100-150Hz range as the 12"s start running out of grunt.
That said, there are a lot of people using the 12"s over subwoofers and reporting plenty of output, so YMMV.

You'd probably be able to fudge the difference by taking the crossover a little higher with the 12"s.

Chris

[Scott Olewiler]

If push comes to shove, the 15"s will have a bit more output in the 100-150Hz range as the 12"s start running out of grunt.
That said, there are a lot of people using the 12"s over subwoofers and reporting plenty of output, so YMMV.

You'd probably be able to fudge the difference by taking the crossover a little higher with the 12"s.

Chris

Between 100 and 150hz is that last place I'd wantt more output out of top.  Must be reason why everyone raves abut the 112 model on here, myself included, and nary a mention of the 15. 

IMHO 15's don't work well as tops unless they're part of a 3 way speaker.

[Stephen Kirby]

I think it's the same HF system.  So unless you're running it full range, I don't see any advantage to the 15.

I've used the 12s for vocal only in small situations but I would never consider them full range.  There's a thump in the mid bass with that switch engaged but no real lows.  If the situation asked for music playback and is too small for subs then I'll bring my K10s (which I'd love to replace with DXR10s).

I've also used the DSRs with a single DSX12 sub in smaller things where it was a bit louder and I wanted the clarity of the DSRs but they do need some low end help.  Where they shine is as tops over subs where the clarity and evenness of HF pattern can get the music across in mid sized situations.

[Dave Pluke]

Between 100 and 150hz is that last place I'd wantt more output out of top.

+1

Another benefit with the 12" (or 8" or 10", for that matter) is potentially smoother transition at the HF crossover point.

Dave

[Luke Geis]

short answer is no.

12" speakers these days aren't really lacking in comparison to their 15" counterparts. In standalone mode, yes, a 15" will have a little more low end power, but the difference in output between a 12" and a 15" is only about 3db at the most these days. If you won't be using all the available power, you can add some low end to a 12" to have a little more oomph and still have headroom and volume. You just can't expect a 12" to hit as hard and get as loud as a 15".

When coupled to a sub, there is no amount of frequencies that the 15" is doing that a 12" isn't already capable of. So the 12" will have the same opportunity to sound as it is intended with only the difference in the size of the driver being the area of loss for SPL. What many don't realize is that the extra area that a 15" speaker has, is what allows for the extra 1-3db in SPL all else being the same. 3db is no big deal at all. A 12" speaker will be equal in opportunity to a 15" in terms of output once crossed over around the 80hz to 100hz area.  Just look at the frequency plots of many 12" and 15" designs. They tend to start converging right around that point.

[Steve Garris]

Also take note that the DSR112 has a monitor wedge angle, and makes for a great floor monitor. The DSR115 does not have this.

Myself, I went with 15" 2-way speakers for my mains, not because of any perceived volume increase, but because I like the way they sound. I do a lot of hard rock tribute & cover bands, and it's just my preference. Mine are JBL, both SRX and PRX powered units.

[Scott Bolt]

The DSR112's are better for doing top over sub work because they are lighter, and can be used easily as monitors.  They have more than enough output to cover >90Hz frequencies without a problem.

Compared to the DSR115, practically every other offering near this price range pales in comparison to the silly output one of these things can do.  The low end is very impressive.  If you have heard the DXR15 and thought that it was impressive, then the DSR115 will really shock you.

If you put them over subs, all of that low end output simply doesn't matter.

To be clear, the DSR112 isn't a good full range speaker on its own.  It is nice for duo/solo work as well.

[Al Poulin]

The DSR112's are better for doing top over sub work because they are lighter, and can be used easily as monitors.  They have more than enough output to cover >90Hz frequencies without a problem.

Compared to the DSR115, practically every other offering near this price range pales in comparison to the silly output one of these things can do.  The low end is very impressive.  If you have heard the DXR15 and thought that it was impressive, then the DSR115 will really shock you.

If you put them over subs, all of that low end output simply doesn't matter.

To be clear, the DSR112 isn't a good full range speaker on its own.  It is nice for duo/solo work as well.

Absolutely agreed, the DSR112 does pretty poorly used full range as it produces very little below 70hz. In its case, it isn't the size of the woofer, but rather the size of the box that limits its lower frequency response IMO. It is VERY loud and clear however, with some very sweet and pronounced top end. Actually, it's likely the loudest compact 12" I've tested, but also the weakest LF wise - so yes, always should be used with sub reinforcement. As for the DSR115, it is the complete opposite, with very strong low end that hits hard too. It is an excellent full range box when subs are not an option (or too much of a hassle for a given event). I find the DSR115s need a bit of boost in the mids however as (to me) they sound a little too mid scooped. I own the DXR15s and absolutely love them for my applications. I thought about the DSR115s, but simply enjoy the much better mixer section on the DXRs - which can be very convenient sometimes.

Al 

[kel mcguire]

Thanks for the advice and insights all. Looks like the DSR112 should be the choice. Right now I have nine QSC K series for monitors and small gig mains. I'm still contemplating selling my old HPR rig of 2 x 153 over 4 x 181 subs. The DSR would replace the HPR153 for a tops option on 200-500 patron events. The subs are the harder decision since they sound good, were paid for years ago and I can't seem to break them    I'be been downsizing, and seem to do less gigs where 4 x 18" 137lb subs are needed. I can always rent

I see these new DZR tops and even the 15" subs, wondering whether two tops and two subs might do everything I need to, plus out-performing my entire HPR rig. And, that'd be an easy one-man load in/out

[Stephen Kirby]

I'd keep your QSC subs.  You really need four 18s or something like an Orbit Shifter or TH118 to keep up with a DSR.  Having four singles gives you the option of leaving two at home if you don't need that much.

Some folks here like the PRX subs for the weight but again you need 4 of them to keep up.

I'm waiting to see how people get on with pairing DSRs with the JTR Captivator 212.  I suspect you'll need 4 of them to keep up with a pair of DSRs flat out or outdoors.  Cost is up there but there's a definite weight savings with the flexibility to bring one or two pairs.

[Scott Bolt]

I'd keep your QSC subs.  You really need four 18s or something like an Orbit Shifter or TH118 to keep up with a DSR.  Having four singles gives you the option of leaving two at home if you don't need that much.

Some folks here like the PRX subs for the weight but again you need 4 of them to keep up.

I'm waiting to see how people get on with pairing DSRs with the JTR Captivator 212.  I suspect you'll need 4 of them to keep up with a pair of DSRs flat out or outdoors.  Cost is up there but there's a definite weight savings with the flexibility to bring one or two pairs.

My thoughts exactly.

The only strange thing I don't really like about the KW181 is that it doesn't have a cross-over built into the sub.  QSC put the cross-over into their tops only.  The KW181 output is a full range signal.  If you tried to use these with the DSR112 tops, you would need a cross-over to keep the LF out of your tops.  It is really a shame, because aside from this .... weirdness, the KW181 is a really nice sub.

I would agree with those here that said they would opt for a scaleable system.  A single DSR is match for any pair of subs out there .... except for higher end subs like the afore mentioned TH118 ..... which is truly a beast among subs.

I think it is fair to say that pretty much everyone on the forum is waiting patiently to get a first hand listen to the new Yamaha DZR series.  It is pretty clear that the DZR is the next generation of the DSR series.  One thing I would point out is that the new subs have a very cool feature of being able to be setup center clustered in a group of 3.  The center sub is then turned around and the DSP setup so that the 3 subs act in concert to achieve a significant increase in SPL over 2 separate subs.

My (rough) guess is that you get an added 3db from the additional speaker, and then another 3db from coupling of the 3 cabinets being clustered together.  The DSP may even squeeze out another 2db if they are clever.  So lets say 6-8db for the price of a single additional sub and a couple of ethernet cables.  I am looking forward to having someone put an SPL meter on this one to get accurate values

You should take a look at the manual on these to see the details.

[Tom Roche]

The only strange thing I don't really like about the KW181 is that it doesn't have a cross-over built into the sub.  QSC put the cross-over into their tops only.  The KW181 output is a full range signal.  If you tried to use these with the DSR112 tops, you would need a cross-over to keep the LF out of your tops.  It is really a shame, because aside from this .... weirdness, the KW181 is a really nice sub.

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.

[Scott Bolt]

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.

You are correct.

I guess I have been running mine for so long in the current config (sub 90Hz out, top full range), that I forgot.

I did try both setups (using full range out from sub, HPF on tops) when I first got them.  I really missed the punch between 90 and 120 when I did it like this though.  The DSR112 has a wonderful round punch in that frequency range that just doesn't seem to come through when you leave that to the sub ..... or at least my subs (PRX618XLF).

You are correct though.  That would work.

[kel mcguire]

I have the HPR181i, which have the 100hz crossover outputs. Comes in handy.

[Rick Powell]

...It is pretty clear that the DZR is the next generation of the DSR series.  One thing I would point out is that the new subs have a very cool feature of being able to be setup center clustered in a group of 3.  The center sub is then turned around and the DSP setup so that the 3 subs act in concert to achieve a significant increase in SPL over 2 separate subs.
together.  The DSP may even squeeze out another 2db if they are clever.  So lets say 6-8db for the price of a single additional sub and a couple of ethernet cables.  I am looking forward to having someone put an SPL meter on this one to get accurate values

My (rough) guess is that you get an added 3db from the additional speaker, and then another 3db from coupling of the 3 cabinets being clustered
You should take a look at the manual on these to see the details.

I did take a look at the manual and it just sounds like normal cardioid arrangement settings (they have settings for a 1 forward+1 rear, and a 2 forward+1 rear), not something that would boost the low end to superhuman levels. Usually used to provide forward directionality by cancelling bass frequencies on stage. The experts here have said that 2+1 cardioid does not provide a boost in forward volume as compared to three forward-facing subs. It is a nice feature to have for flexibility, rather than having to have polarity-flipping turnaround cords, etc.

The setting switches of normal, bass boost and low boost are also a function of Hoffman's Iron law within this size of enclosure (low, compact, loud - pick 2 of 3). Even with the low boost, you are down about 10dB at 30 Hz, a decent but not earth shattering sub for its size. The bass boost sacrifices a little low end for a hump in the 60Hz range.

[Scott Bolt]

I did take a look at the manual and it just sounds like normal cardioid arrangement settings (they have settings for a 1 forward+1 rear, and a 2 forward+1 rear), not something that would boost the low end to superhuman levels. Usually used to provide forward directionality by cancelling bass frequencies on stage. The experts here have said that 2+1 cardioid does not provide a boost in forward volume as compared to three forward-facing subs. It is a nice feature to have for flexibility, rather than having to have polarity-flipping turnaround cords, etc.

The setting switches of normal, bass boost and low boost are also a function of Hoffman's Iron law within this size of enclosure (low, compact, loud - pick 2 of 3). Even with the low boost, you are down about 10dB at 30 Hz, a decent but not earth shattering sub for its size. The bass boost sacrifices a little low end for a hump in the 60Hz range.

Hi Rick,

I need to do some research.  Running subs in cardioid mode seems to be more of a "keep the LF off the stage" feature rather than raising SPL feature.  In fact, from what little I have read so far, looks like you actually lose some SPL and LF in the deal.

[Luke Geis]

There are two ways to do cardioid subs. One couples in the front completely and the other does steel a little SPL and can cause some loss in the upper low end in the forward side. The later is better at reducing more lows in the rearward plane however.

If you can imagine a rear facing sub as being your start point, you can delay the rear sub for maximum rejection at pretty much all frequencies in the rearward plane, or you can delay the front speakers to couple with the rear facing subs forward energy, losing effective reduction in the rearward plane.

Because the rear facing sub is polarity inverted, the driver is moving in the same direction as the forward facing subs, but in the rearward plane is ahead in time. Delaying it a few ms can make it so that it is 180* out of phase with the forward facing subs rearward energy, creating maximum reduction in the rearward plane. In the forward plane, the rear facing sub is only out of phase by several degree's and therefore there is some cancellations at frequencies which are within that degree of phase / time. Being roughly 3-4' off in time after distance and delay is factored, the typical area where most reduction occurs is around 100hz and higher. Most cardioid sub arrays are crossed over closer to 80hz to help mitigate that phenomenon.

 

[Scott Bolt]

Thanks Luke.

Just putting 2 subs side by side "clustered" I thought generally gave you 3db from the extra sub, and 3db from the additional cabinet coupling.  I seem to recall this from somewhere, but can't recall where.

Adding a 3rd sub would then likely add .... less than another 3db would be my guess? .... and even less added coupling.

[Mike Karseboom]

While I also wish the KW181 included an output that is high passed, the DSR112 does include a HPF switch.  It's set at 120Hz.  Others have reported no discernable audible dip between the sub's 100Hz and the top's 120Hz.

Those built in crossover functions are certainly handy but my experience is that it works best within the specific manufacturer's product group.  That is the overall frequency response  is fairly smooth and, potentially more important,  the phase alignment around the acoustic crossover lines up.


When you start mixing boxes from different manufactures, or even mixing different lines from the same manufacturer, those responses around the crossover may not be optimum.  The only way to tell is to measure it. 


Of course that does not mean it doesn't sound "good".  But sometimes that last bit of correction enhances the overall clarity and impact to a noticeable degree.  Realistically it is a refinement more for your own enjoyment than something  the unwashed masses would recognize or appreciate.


I mix different subs and tops a lot so typically use external processing.  I wish there were more powered boxes that allowed you to defeat the crossover.  I worked  with some Turbosound Sienna 18" subs recently that were pretty nice but I could not defeat the low pass on the subs.  I could only adjust it to different set frequencies, none of which were what I was after.

[ProSoundWeb Community]