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Author Topic: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz  (Read 1098 times)

Jason Branden

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2018, 07:43:22 pm »

Quick one to check: is the shield from the cat5 connected to the shells of both ethercons?  What's the lenght of the cat5?

My DL32/16's have never skipped a beat. Last weekend one lived 4 days between racks of d&b D12, D20 and 1200's, and some dimmers, with EDM.

It was between racks the racks, but what else with in with the DL32?   Mine are physically in my MA2 rack. I'm thinking that having the DL32 on top of/directly next to the Digium is a bad deal.  Still seems strange to me though. I can't imagine I'm the first person to have a configuration like this.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2018, 07:47:54 pm »

I think the dl32 is faulty.

Was removing the dl32, and run only the m32 an option?
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Jason Branden

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2018, 07:54:52 pm »

I think the dl32 is faulty.

Was removing the dl32, and run only the m32 an option?

Unfortunately not.  Of all the backup stuff I truck in, an analog snake wasn't one of them. >_<
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2018, 11:56:55 pm »

It doesn’t sound like it from what you are describing, but are you aware that there is a known problem with some DBX Venue 360 units. It has to do with the power supply connector to the main board. I have one here that I just did the fix on yesterday for someone. I wonder if it is on the same power drop as the DL32 if it could cause a problem with the DL32, if it is plugged in but not even being used. From what the problem is it shouldn’t be an issue, but when it comes to digital things I am not so quick to write off any thing even when it looks like it couldn’t be the cause. 
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 03:04:30 am »

What are you using to monitor voltage, and what is its response time?

You say that the console/snake head connection indicator went from green to red, so I agree that you are losing sync. I don't see how some kind of outboard gear is causing that.

My money is on either a loose RJ45 connectiion on console or snake, or that you were getting a momentary voltage drop which caused the console to reboot. Voltage drop below something like 85 volts for more than half an AC sine wave will cause a reboot. You didn't mention a UPS in your list of gear.

Wait, how long were the dropouts? Reboot would be a while, certainly longer than the duration of a kick hit (or whatever).

If it wasn't rebooting then something was loose, and since you replaced the snake it likely wouldn't be in the snake. That leaves console and stage box.

Did you have a spare stage box? Why not? Spare console?

That's the only thing I can think of: have spares if/when something goes bad. Good that you had a spare snake, but it didn't solve the problem. This gear is cheap and lightweight enough, in historical comparison, that it doesn't make sense to not carry spares for everything. A Producer or X32Rack in SKB or whatever cases hardly weigh anything, and a spare S16 or S32 don't take up much rack space. I'm not familiar with the DL series.

Otherwise, you did a good job of sussing it out, or trying to. Not trying to bust your chops, because you were thorough and prepared in your troubleshooting. But spares are good.
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Mac Kerr

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Posting Rules
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 09:15:27 am »

Hey Folks,

First time poster here.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
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Jason Branden

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 10:46:47 am »

What are you using to monitor voltage, and what is its response time?

You say that the console/snake head connection indicator went from green to red, so I agree that you are losing sync. I don't see how some kind of outboard gear is causing that.

My money is on either a loose RJ45 connectiion on console or snake, or that you were getting a momentary voltage drop which caused the console to reboot. Voltage drop below something like 85 volts for more than half an AC sine wave will cause a reboot. You didn't mention a UPS in your list of gear.

Wait, how long were the dropouts? Reboot would be a while, certainly longer than the duration of a kick hit (or whatever).

If it wasn't rebooting then something was loose, and since you replaced the snake it likely wouldn't be in the snake. That leaves console and stage box.

Did you have a spare stage box? Why not? Spare console?

That's the only thing I can think of: have spares if/when something goes bad. Good that you had a spare snake, but it didn't solve the problem. This gear is cheap and lightweight enough, in historical comparison, that it doesn't make sense to not carry spares for everything. A Producer or X32Rack in SKB or whatever cases hardly weigh anything, and a spare S16 or S32 don't take up much rack space. I'm not familiar with the DL series.

Otherwise, you did a good job of sussing it out, or trying to. Not trying to bust your chops, because you were thorough and prepared in your troubleshooting. But spares are good.

I was using both a Fluke 289 for testing (0.025 ms, 0.25 ms, 2.5 ms)  and my system also has a full time E-gage in the power distribution system for monitoring power quality (voltage, current, entire rig power usage, etc) (https://www.egauge.net/) -If there was even a small blip on the mains side, I'd know for sure.

My reasoning for why I thought it would be electromagnetic was due to the fact that the DL32 was sitting right on top of the Digium (which is a very high power class D amplifier)  The switching power supply in it can produce HUGE amounts of magnetic fields, and high frequency switching noise under load that I assume can make its way into a digital data stream.  -Like I said though, I am drawing at straws at this point.  I'm hoping to do some testing this weekend and will report back with my findings. I'll be checking both shake test, which was mentioned above, and I will also be looking at exactly how much RFI/magnetic radiation is on top of that digital amp.  With the AES50 signal being a low voltage signal as it is, I don't think it would be out of the realm of impossibility that high current devices could interfere with the processing of those signal. especially if they use coil filters/etc.  But, we'll see! I honestly have no idea what I'm dealing with yet! Hoping to also get that DL16 before this weekend for testing.


And yeah, I totally agree with having spares! My main issue was that I upgraded RIGHT before my event and admittedly, I wasn't prepared. I usually even carry an analog snake in the truck as well. Not this time. (oversight) I'm hoping to actually outfit the rig with at least a spare dl16 for exactly this reason, though. Having the DL32 box go out would be a show stopper for sure! (I have spares for every other critical system in place already) 

Thanks for the time and advice! -J
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Jason Branden

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Re: Posting Rules
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2018, 10:51:05 am »

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
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Apologies for that, I did read and see that mention, however I guess it wasn't clear at the time that the registration username was also the Forum name   -That said, hindsight is 20/20 as you guys even put in quote "This is the displayed name that people will see" and I didn't put it together.   -Can't win`em all I guess ;)   

Got it fixed up.
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Nate Zifra

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2018, 12:00:08 pm »

It was 150 feet including patch cables. Ground tested on every cable. (barrel to barrel)

-J

Just to be clear, and I may have missed this.  You mention patch cables.  Did you have the Cat5 patched directly between the M32 and DL32, or hooked into a rack panel, and then patched to the DL?  I've been told that Midas advises a direct connection between devices.
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Hanno Meingast

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Re: AES50 dropout during subharmonics/anything under sustained 50hz
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2018, 12:14:36 pm »

You mentioned patch cables. Did you check the patching adapters? 


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