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Author Topic: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?  (Read 962 times)

Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2018, 08:20:38 pm »


That above said, I agree with using what you have. So lets stick with the woofers & amps you have.

Can you LIST (like short) exactly each item you have and how many?

? Are you under the impression I'm asking permission to use drivers and cabs I've already been using for years or need help with them in any way?

I'm not...

I get it you all want to know absolutely every last lil detail on my system so you can try to belittle me but the goal here was to talk about high eff low wattage cab designs and drivers so I could come up with a new design of double 18s for me to use, I'd like to base it around the rvp 18 inch driver but everybody seems to hate it and refuses to talk about it despite me mentioning it multiple times, cuz high wattage drivers is the only option on this forums, you guys refuse to talk about anything else and belittle people who suggest it as being wrong even if its the best option for them. I already have two of them and I already have multiple amps I can use to power them, lets not derail ourselves more by talking about these cuz I don't care if I can power half as many higher wattage drivers with my amps, thats not the subject I'm trying to talk about, so trying to get that information out of me is just going to farther derail this subject and pass even less useful information on.

I mean thats the point of me posting here, to gain information and suggestions on a high eff low wattage sub design. Not describe my entire system and have you guys nit pick every aspect of it for fun.

Sorry if I sound like I'm being short with you but the only thing I've done in this entire thread is describe my system to you guys to have it derail farther and farther away from the subject of high eff low wattage cabs/drivers as if you all have zero intentions of talking about it cuz high wattage is god here and I'm stupid for not agreeing with you all. I feel like people here have zero intention of actually joining the conversation, but rather are only here to tell me to do what they are doing regardless of it not working for my situation for multiple reasons.

Bout sums up how this feels, I'm not gaining anything useful here by displaying my system to have people flame me for simply owning it and liking it over other higher wattage systems I've used, so at what point of me describing what I already own can we talk about high eff low wattage cabs and drivers? I feel like its never going to happen since people here have zero intentions of talking about it.

I mean I'm not here for a speaker PHYSICS course that'll prove what I'm using is the wrong choice for you, I'm looking to open a serious debate here about high eff low wattage drivers you guys don't seem to want to talk about.

I mean theres festivals here in bc with walls of 500w drivers (maybe 50 cabs) that sound amazing, to tell me they don't sound good and my ears are lying cuz your loyalty to your drivers and cabs isn't being truthful.

I mean if low wattage 18s are such trash how did community sell their s218 for nearly two grand for a double 18 that was using 300w drivers? I've personally heard them and they produce bass, its not a fart sound, its not quite, its not transforming it into something weird and its not catching fire. So whats the problem aside of brand loyalty and wattage ego cuz I'm not seeing it.
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2018, 08:24:46 pm »

...Imo spl is great, but you gain extra spl by stacking cabs together...

Not what I meant. I am simply asking what SPL are you trying to achieve?

No matter what system layout you have and how many subs you have and how they are coupled you will be getting an SPL reading. For these events what reading do you typically shoot for?

The reason people are asking is that the best sub (and hence design) for your particular application (not someone else's) will be dependant on the SPL that you want.

Wanting 85 Db A-Weighted slow is very different from 110 Db A-Weighted slow, and it would give you vastly different recommendations.

Also how loud the SPL is will definitely affect your power draw, to quote many on this forum shaving a few DB's can significantly reduce your system's power usage.

I realize power is an ancillary issue for you, however, the reason it keeps coming up is that the needed power is determined by SPL needs, not the other way around, and that driver efficiency (especially if you are on a power budget) is critically important.

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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2018, 08:27:49 pm »

What do you mean bump very hard?

You're only 3dB down when driving that 1kw driver with .5kw that's the threshold of normal people's detecting a change.

Woah, woah, woah, wait what? Did I understand you correctly, you're unwilling to do the proper calculations to understand the needs of your gear?

I think you might be confusing speaker watts (not constant-ish) with electrical watts (constant-ish)

No one here is berating, flaming, or doing anything to harm you.

Lets get back to the main program. I answered all your original questions about if you can post and how to post.

What is it that you are after? Posit a question for the hive mind.

"Woah, woah, woah, wait what? Did I understand you correctly, you're unwilling to do the proper calculations to understand the needs of your gear?"

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I said I've already tested my amps power draws to the point where I know how much power they pull on my genny before I pop a braker.

What use do I have for your calculation if I already know what I can do? Might show me I have 100-200w headroom, does that matter to me? No. Does that change anything? No. Does this have anything to do with high eff low wattage drivers or cabs? No. How is this on subject or useful at all for me? Its not.

"I think you might be confusing speaker watts (not constant-ish) with electrical watts (constant-ish)"

Not sure how. The power pull of the 21s on the back of the plate amp says either 4500 or 4800 watts pull from the wall, I'm not "confused" it says right on the bloody speaker itself. If you look at the specs of the speaker it gives it around 2400-2500w to the driver, while pulling 4500-4800w from the wall. Again what does this have to do with high eff low wattage drivers? Nothing. Why do I need to run power calcs on this when ITS CLEARLY STATED WHAT THEY PULL ~AND~ I've tested it in real world to know they pull more then my genny can handle.

Its like you guys are trying your hardest to stay off subject and not talk about high eff low wattage drivers or cab, like this is a game to you guys to ask me about my system, berate me about what you think is going on while offering zero subject matter to the high eff low wattage subject.

"""What is it that you are after?"""

I wanted to talk about high eff low wattage drivers, but in everybodys world here they don't exist and I'm a fool for even talking about it and not selling my gear to "upgrade" to high wattage.

Same thing I tried to talk about before. Same result, nobody is willing to talk about it, telling me I'm wrong for even thinking about trying it.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2018, 08:31:18 pm »

In otherwords if I buy a 1k watt driver but only feed it 500w its not going to be bumping very hard...

You'd be surprised.  I honestly suggest you learn more about how wattage affects SPL.  As I and others keep trying to tell you, wattage is only one piece of the puzzle when determining how loud a speaker can play and how good it will sound.  For what it's worth, your quoted example would only be a 3dB loss compared to the 1kW driver, everything else being equal.

I'm not going to belabor the number of boxes argument, but you're solving this backwards.  You need to first determine the performance goals of your system and then determine your options to get there.

Mike,

I do not think Jeff was stating you needed to cover 200ft. Clearly, you do not. Instead, he was saying that your needs should not be incredibly difficult to achieve, as 40-50ft of coverage is relatively easy.

Also, it would be helpful if you stated what SPL you are trying to achieve, in the given coverage area.

Yes, what I'm saying is that a system to only fill 40ft back is by no means difficult to piece together nor does it need to be anything massive.  I can think of a number of off-the-shelf solutions that could serve you nicely. 

So instead of telling me not to do it or that its not worth doing... Why not point me in the direction of how to do it in the best way? Or towards some designs that might be worth looking at? I mean absolutely worst case, I make a cab I don't use and you can laugh at me and say "told ya so!", I mean I wouldn't even be butthurt cuz I've already got the drivers and the amp to power it so I'm wasting maybe a day of working on it and wood+glue costs, theres no risk or downside or huge investment here when I got everything.

You're the one who keeps telling us everything you cannot do.  Several of us are tying to be helpful, and it'd be nice to pare things down to a more digestible length for each post too.  You'll get more responses that way.  I asked you three simple questions to help guide things along a more constructive path, which you ignored.  Matthias added a fourth question that I forgot and you've only alluded to - coverage area.  If we can forget wattage, driver size, and everything else that doesn't address these four questions for right now, I think we'll get somewhere.

...from my experience all self powered units pull way too much power to produce what they do to the speaker.

That is completely wrong!  No one here is trying to berate you or talk down to you, but when you make claims such as this it puts everything else you say into question too.  It makes no difference where the amp is in relation to how much power you draw.  Maybe you had a bad experience with your prior speakers, maybe something wasn't set up correctly, who knows...  I own both self-powered and non-powered speakers.  Both work as intended when chosen and deployed correctly.  As an aside to your subwoofer journey, I strongly suggest you learn about wattage/power and how to load circuits.  There's some trial and error to it, but once you get to know what you're doing it's not that complicated and I think you'll really be surprised as to how much you can squeeze out of your circuits.

(Yes I know more posts were made while typing this.  It took too much effort to begin with so I'm not putting in more effort just to edit it)
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2018, 08:34:43 pm »

? Are you under the impression I'm asking permission to use drivers and cabs I've already been using for years or need help with them in any way?

For your sub design, yes I/we/whoever want to now what drivers, what amps, and how many. It would also help if I/we/whoever knew what tops and what other subs you have.

The title of this thread is "WinISD dual 18" what drivers and how many and what amps do you have?

Post up your WinISD model.

Do the work and stop asking silly questions, saying patently wrong statements, or making presumptions about a person's intent.

If for some reason you think I'm this 'troll' person (who has been from the very start on your side) then I am not meaning to come across that way and I'm sorry.

FYI, my patience is wearing thin.
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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2018, 08:36:28 pm »

Not what I meant. I am simply asking what SPL are you trying to achieve?

No matter what system layout you have and how many subs you have and how they are coupled you will be getting an SPL reading. For these events what reading do you typically shoot for?

The reason people are asking is that the best sub (and hence design) for your particular application (not someone else's) will be dependant on the SPL that you want.

Wanting 85 Db A-Weighted slow is very different from 110 Db A-Weighted slow, and it would give you vastly different recommendations.

Also how loud the SPL is will definitely affect your power draw, to quote many on this forum shaving a few DB's can significantly reduce your system's power usage.

I realize power is an ancillary issue for you, however, the reason it keeps coming up is that the needed power is determined by SPL needs, not the other way around, and that driver efficiency (especially if you are on a power budget) is critically important.

"The reason people are asking is that the best sub (and hence design) for your particular application (not someone else's) will be dependant on the SPL that you want. "

I don't agree this is the whole story, for example horn path subs will generally have higher spl at the cost of sound quality or even changing the note or delays due to the time it takes to get out the horn. In my opinion for EDM bass you need to use speakers that don't have a delay or else you can't scratch to it or beat match to it cuz its delayed and won't match with your headphones. Something you guys prob don't think about when building your system for spl.

So saying "how much spl do you want" isn't really what I'm asking either since spl isn't the goal here, we're looking for the best sound we can get, not the loudest sound. I'd be fine with 3db less but with a wider bass note that sounded good at all hz instead of just through one limited band... But I guess this is the wrong place to talk about that on a lab forum lol.

Instead of asking me what spl I want, maybe show me some high spl designs that are dual 400-600w 18?

Asking me hz cut would be more legitimate then asking about spl, but I've already addressed that by saying I cut my subs at 30hz and top them at 150hz atm however I'm looking at a driverack 260 so I have more ability to edit that on a case by case instead of giving all subs the same cut. In otherwords I'm looking for these for subs, not kick bins or full range, not sure why thats so confusing for you guys.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 08:45:02 pm »

Not sure how. The power pull of the 21s on the back of the plate amp says either 4500 or 4800 watts pull from the wall, I'm not "confused" it says right on the bloody speaker itself. If you look at the specs of the speaker it gives it around 2400-2500w to the driver, while pulling 4500-4800w from the wall. Again what does this have to do with high eff low wattage drivers? Nothing. Why do I need to run power calcs on this when ITS CLEARLY STATED WHAT THEY PULL ~AND~ I've tested it in real world to know they pull more then my genny can handle.

This is also completely wrong. And why we're lenient to continue into other aspects of your proposed discussion if you are unwilling to learn ancillary information about said discussion.

Its like you guys are trying your hardest to stay off subject and not talk about high eff low wattage drivers or cab, like this is a game to you guys to ask me about my system, berate me about what you think is going on while offering zero subject matter to the high eff low wattage subject.

See above.

I wanted to talk about high eff low wattage drivers, but in everybodys world here they don't exist and I'm a fool for even talking about it and not selling my gear to "upgrade" to high wattage.

Same thing I tried to talk about before. Same result, nobody is willing to talk about it, telling me I'm wrong for even thinking about trying it.
See above.

Also, who in this thread said "sell your gear"?
And, who in this thread said "I refuse to talk about high eff low watt drivers" ?

Okay, I'm done responding for now. I think you're upset with me though my intent is pure. Perhaps if you answer Jeff's questions you'll get a more constructive discussion going?
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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 08:47:48 pm »

You'd be surprised.  I honestly suggest you learn more about how wattage affects SPL.  As I and others keep trying to tell you, wattage is only one piece of the puzzle when determining how loud a speaker can play and how good it will sound.  For what it's worth, your quoted example would only be a 3dB loss compared to the 1kW driver, everything else being equal.

I'm not going to belabor the number of boxes argument, but you're solving this backwards.  You need to first determine the performance goals of your system and then determine your options to get there.

Yes, what I'm saying is that a system to only fill 40ft back is by no means difficult to piece together nor does it need to be anything massive.  I can think of a number of off-the-shelf solutions that could serve you nicely. 

You're the one who keeps telling us everything you cannot do.  Several of us are tying to be helpful, and it'd be nice to pare things down to a more digestible length for each post too.  You'll get more responses that way.  I asked you three simple questions to help guide things along a more constructive path, which you ignored.  Matthias added a fourth question that I forgot and you've only alluded to - coverage area.  If we can forget wattage, driver size, and everything else that doesn't address these four questions for right now, I think we'll get somewhere.

That is completely wrong!  No one here is trying to berate you or talk down to you, but when you make claims such as this it puts everything else you say into question too.  It makes no difference where the amp is in relation to how much power you draw.  Maybe you had a bad experience with your prior speakers, maybe something wasn't set up correctly, who knows...  I own both self-powered and non-powered speakers.  Both work as intended when chosen and deployed correctly.  As an aside to your subwoofer journey, I strongly suggest you learn about wattage/power and how to load circuits.  There's some trial and error to it, but once you get to know what you're doing it's not that complicated and I think you'll really be surprised as to how much you can squeeze out of your circuits.

(Yes I know more posts were made while typing this.  It took too much effort to begin with so I'm not putting in more effort just to edit it)

"""wattage is only one piece of the puzzle when determining how loud a speaker can play and how good it will sound.""
So why can't you accept a lower wattage driver may be a good option then if its only one piece of the puzzle?

Again the VBSS is a low wattage $90 driver producing 17 or 31hz depending on the port tune. To tel me you can't get low bass or loud bass with lower wattage drivers is a flat lie so I would thank you to stop repeating that.

If you think self powered speakers pull 1:1 your wrong. I've proven otherwise, I CANNOT power two of them off one 9.2k genny. Yes I'm the only one here saying I can't but I'm also the only one here WHO HAS ACTUALLY TRIED IT. *facepalm*

I feel like I'm going in circles here where you guys repeatedly ask me about gear and then berate me for not doing what you say or agreeing with you.

Do you even know of any high eff low wattage cabs or drivers? Or are you just here to flame for fun?

" It makes no difference where the amp is in relation to how much power you draw."
What does this even have to do with anything? Why are you talking about power draw? I'm sorry I mentioned I tried two 21 inch subs and they pulled more power then 16x 18s cuz this is retarded we can't move past this point and that your basicly calling me a liar for having the experience I've had of the two 21s pulling more power due to being self powered then my passive 16x 18s would.

I mean just look at yorkvilles site, maybe YOUR self powered speakers are 1:1 but these are more like 1:1.5 even their 500w self powered 15s with horns pull 750w out of the wall when fully driven. Yeah sure you can turn it down and use less power but then your not fully driving the 15 to 500w, this conversation is honestly stupid and I feel stupider for having been in it, go check the back of your self powered speakers I'm willing to bet you a $100 bill that whatever power is being given to the speaker is not the same power being drawn out of the wall.
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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 08:52:41 pm »

This is also completely wrong. And why we're lenient to continue into other aspects of your proposed discussion if you are unwilling to learn ancillary information about said discussion.


Okay I'll bite.

What part is wrong.

The back plate panel that says it pulls 4800w, the fact it blows my genny braker proving its pulling too much wattage or the 2500w they claim the sub gets?

Cuz no matter how you look at this, it still pulls too much power to produce that, so much that it blows my braker, to suggest to me it pulls less and won't blow my braker is false. So if your saying your calculations are saying otherwise, this just proves to me how useless your calculations are if they DONT line up with real world use, if your calc says its fine, but its not when I actually go to use it, then the calc is wrong and its not fine.

And again we're talking about stupid shit cuz everybody on this forum is more concerned about knowing every last detail about things that don't matter so they can talk about that, instead of the actual subject matter.

I mean do you even know of one design for a high eff low wattage cab or driver? Or are you here purely to tell me how it is?

You keep asking for shit like drivers but I've mentioned two different drivers and quoted directly to you one type of driver at least 3-4 times.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 08:54:47 pm by Mike Spade »
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2018, 08:52:51 pm »

FYI, my patience is wearing thin.

Me too - I'm out.  As predicted in post #4 this is now another dumpster fire.  I've killed enough brain cells on this one!
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