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Author Topic: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?  (Read 961 times)

Rob Spence

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 07:33:40 pm »

Why dredge up everything from the previous thread if you want to move on?

Moving on, i suggest you and us make for shorter posts that focus on one subject. Easier, at least for me, to digest and respond to.

About driver sizes. Use what you want. Maybe an individual or 2 here likes 21 drivers. I am personally driver size agnostic. All i care about is getting the spl i need at the frequencies i need.
Up until recently i used horn subs with 12 drivers. My change to a cabinet with a single 18 was driven by ergonomics, and a desire for the same or more spl with fewer boxes to move. Driver size didnt matter to me.

Ok, new reply coming with new topic.



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Rob Spence

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 07:36:59 pm »

You state you want a wall of bass. Do some modeling. A real wide stack of subs may have an unexpected consequence with the coverage pattern.


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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 07:42:01 pm »

Back to watts again - I think you're severely overestimating your real-world power consumption.  I understand that you have limited power, and it's a legitimate concern.  Unless you're adding a few coffee urns to go with your subs I think you're selling yourself short.  There are some good threads here about what systems actually consume in real conditions.  Definitely worth a read.  I can run my entire sound system on 1 of those generators so long as I pay attention to what I'm doing.

I think you'll find yourself in the minority here.  Did you and your guests actually walk the venue with measuring equipment, or did your eyes become your ears here?  Looks sell, there's no doubt about it.  Having a visually impressive system is important to some people.  My hunch though is that at the end of the day your "wall of sound" will cost more, use more energy, consume more manpower, and sound WORSE than a few carefully selected AND deployed subwoofers. 

Why don't we take a step back...and forget about wattage for a second!  Before getting hung up on specifics, what performance do you need out of your subs (SPL/frequency/etc.).  What's your budget?  What do you need out of your new system that your existing system can't do?  Answering these basic questions will help provide more useful answers that can take things in a constructive direction.  Playing to a crowd 40ft back is nothing.  One of my routine venues measures about 200ft to the back of the field, and that's still small chips compared to what others here do.  Are you possibly overthinking this?

"Why don't we take a step back...and forget about wattage for a second!"

Cuz I can't power higher wattage drivers off the amps and gennys I have, I would have to buy new amps and new gennys in order to power higher wattage drivers.. So thats why I'm looking for drivers in the wattage I am, so I can stack multiples, instead of only being stuck with singles.

I mean I get it, you got a few high powered subs and your concreted on the fact they are better 1 vs 1, I agree with you. But can I power 16x high powered drivers off the gennys or amps I have? No. So its not a option for me without selling everything I have and that may be a option for you, but its not for me. So the more cost effective option would be to continue to use what I have and upgrade by stacking more subs that would fit into the power rating I'm already using.

In otherwords if I buy a 1k watt driver but only feed it 500w its not going to be bumping very hard, so there is no point in overpaying for drivers when I could get twice as many or more by using cheaper 500-600w drivers.

I mean there is actually a thought process behind this even if you disagree with it being the best choice for you, this is the best choice for me.

""""I think you'll find yourself in the minority here.  Did you and your guests actually walk the venue with measuring equipment, or did your eyes become your ears here?  Looks sell, there's no doubt about it.  Having a visually impressive system is important to some people.  My hunch though is that at the end of the day your "wall of sound" will cost more, use more energy, consume more manpower, and sound WORSE than a few carefully selected AND deployed subwoofers.  """""

I'm obviously a minority here, everybody seems to only have a handful of high powered drivers so they can easily storage and transport them, quoting numbers and math on paper that doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

Me and about 500 people walked around the outdoor venue for 2 days, so yes there was a huge difference in bass and I got comments all night about how much better it was then the last show where I used two 21s. Sure the 21 went lower, but we're playing alot of house music so having more punchy subs actually sounded better/louder. Sure disregard what I have to say if you want but over 20 djs played on that stage and they all commented about the system being alot louder. I'm 30 years old and been playing with my sound gear for over a decade so forgive me if I trust my ears over the opinion of someone online who is disregarding the entire situation I'm in, in favor of suggesting I sell everything and transfer over to a "few carefully selected AND deployed subwoofers." its just bad advise that I won't be taking so please don't get upset that his hasn't changed my mind at all. I mean from the sounds of things you got a smaller system then I do.

"One of my routine venues measures about 200ft to the back of the field, and that's still small chips compared to what others here do.  Are you possibly overthinking this? "

Maybe YOUR overthinking this, my venue doesn't even go back 200ft lol its a circle clearing in the woods, maybe 100ft circled. Why do I need subs that go back 200 feet or project the sound at such velocity past people that you need to be back that far to enjoy it when I know my guests are going to be within 1 to 20 to 40 feet of the stage, thats the range I wish things to sound good within and as wide as possible. Yeah sure you can hear my subs 200 feet away at the road but that isn't the goal, the goal is to give the best experience 1 to 20 to 40 feet in front of the stage. Again I don't feel like your taking my situation into account when making these suggestions, I don't need under 30hz at 200 feet away cuz that would be in the trees where nobody is.

We're obviously looking at this from different points of view so forgive me when I say whats right for you, isn't right for me.

So instead of telling me not to do it or that its not worth doing... Why not point me in the direction of how to do it in the best way? Or towards some designs that might be worth looking at? I mean absolutely worst case, I make a cab I don't use and you can laugh at me and say "told ya so!", I mean I wouldn't even be butthurt cuz I've already got the drivers and the amp to power it so I'm wasting maybe a day of working on it and wood+glue costs, theres no risk or downside or huge investment here when I got everything.

Jeff makes a good point here  :)

Thread on Power Draw

In particular, Tim's response:

Well the fact of the day is two 21s on my 9.2k genny is enough to bust brakers and interupt the music while I run to the genny to flick it back on, then back to the sub to turn it down.

It was a unprofessional experience that I never wish to try again and have been using pure passive since then, from my experience all self powered units pull way too much power to produce what they do to the speaker.

It honestly doesn't matter to me what the real world power calculation use is, I work of real world situations not calculations, all I need to know is option 1 blows my brakers if I use the 21s fully and option 2 works fine running a bunch of 18s. I mean I'm not trying to recalculate what I have power for, I already know what I have power for, I can power 16x 18s off each 9.2k genny with enough head room that I can add some lights on one, laptops on another, but not both lights and laptops or else I'll blow brakers again. Real world experience has shown me this in my 8+ shows a year for the last decade, so as much as you guys keep suggesting I know nothing and can do things that I can't do, thats not the reality of my situation.

Trust me when I say I've tested the crap out of what I'm able to run on those gennys to the point where I was forced to buy a 3d one due to not being able to power everything.

I feel like we're getting derailed again here tho by nit picking on shit that doesn't matter like my actual power consumption as if it has anything to do with high eff low wattage cabs or drivers. I mean is the point here to bring anything useful or just berate me with your opinion untill I say I agree with you?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:54:53 pm by Mike Spade »
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 07:50:23 pm »


Could we agree to one thing before we proceed?

Learning is best done, NOT by DOING, but by learning from other's mistakes. Otherwise everyone would have to do something proven wrong/not wise before they could learn anything. That's not an efficient way to learn. Building upon past success enables us to skip those parts and instead improve upon our current understanding. Not that understanding the fundamentals isn't necessary though, just that we don't have to prove to ourselves that the fundamentals work.

IF we can agree to that then lets proceed.

Not sure I agree with this.

So lets say you try something and in your opinion its not for you. You tell person 2 that option B is better since option A didn't work for you. Person 2 takes your word for it and doesn't try option A, goes straight into option B. What if person 2 finds out later down the road that the reasons you picked option B over option A don't really apply to him and he would've been better off going with option A? Should he then tell person 3 that option A is better cuz its better for him despite knowing option B was better for his friend due to them both being in different situations, having different requirements and caring about different things?

My point is that just cuz someone is giving you "advise" doesn't mean its good advise or the option you should take.

I mean if nobody challenged ideas we would be cavemen still, there would be no science advancement if everybody just took someones word for it or accepted that as the way it is without trying or testing it.

I mean perfect example is people telling me that a 21 inch 2500w driver would be better then a bunch of 18s, I didn't meet anyone on any forums that said otherwise. But "better" is a subjective word based upon opinion, this isn't fact this is opinions based upon numbers on paper thats why you think its so matter of fact when its not, its not real world experience in most cases. So I feel my real world experience of actually having physically done the testing of 2x 21s verse 16x 18s accounts for more then numbers crunched on paper, when I can see it works better for my situation. Will it work better for your situation with limited storage space, limited transport space, bad back with nobody to help you move your shit? Prob not! But I'm not in the same situation as you without storage, without large box transport or without people to help, so those don't factor into my choice at all where these seem to be the top of the list for alot of users here due to the replies I'm getting.

My word you love to write don't ya ;)

Okay, Let me preface my statement. Learning about PHYSICS or any of the applied sciences doesn't require testing/proving the laws of nature aren't changing and we don't need to revisit them.

Application specific opinions...sure, people like bananas but not oranges, etc.

The PHYSICS of a newer more recently designed woofer with larger xmax will mean it can do more than older drivers for the same given power. Thus increasing efficiency. Thus reducing the number of subs and/or generators.

edit (to include previous response)

That above said, I agree with using what you have. So lets stick with the woofers & amps you have.

Can you LIST (like short) exactly each item you have and how many?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:55:30 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 07:56:07 pm »


Maybe YOUR overthinking this, my venue doesn't even go back 200ft lol its a circle clearing in the woods, maybe 100ft circled.

Mike,

I do not think Jeff was stating you needed to cover 200ft. Clearly, you do not. Instead, he was saying that your needs should not be incredibly difficult to achieve, as 40-50ft of coverage is relatively easy.

Also, it would be helpful if you stated what SPL you are trying to achieve, in the given coverage area.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 08:00:17 pm »

Ya know, the OP claims we dont listen to him.

He also doesnt seem to really want to hear anything that isnt what he is going to do anyway.

Bye bye, to many words, not enough information.


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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2018, 08:02:36 pm »

Why dredge up everything from the previous thread if you want to move on?

Moving on, i suggest you and us make for shorter posts that focus on one subject. Easier, at least for me, to digest and respond to.

About driver sizes. Use what you want. Maybe an individual or 2 here likes 21 drivers. I am personally driver size agnostic. All i care about is getting the spl i need at the frequencies i need.
Up until recently i used horn subs with 12 drivers. My change to a cabinet with a single 18 was driven by ergonomics, and a desire for the same or more spl with fewer boxes to move. Driver size didnt matter to me.

Ok, new reply coming with new topic.



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Honestly? I thought addressing it would help prevent it from happening again but it seems the trolls are back and won't take "that isn't for me" as a reply.

I mean its not the first time I've been told higher wattage drivers are better, sure it won't be the last, the problem I'm having tho is people straight up refusing to accept someone would want to do anything but that to the point where they start arguing with me about what I should do with my own gear as if they know my gear better then I do (and that its trash I should sell to buy their gear)

It gets old, fast and its not constructive or helpful in any way when I've been clear already that isn't the option I want.

"About driver sizes. Use what you want. Maybe an individual or 2 here likes 21 drivers. I am personally driver size agnostic. All i care about is getting the spl i need at the frequencies i need.
Up until recently i used horn subs with 12 drivers. My change to a cabinet with a single 18 was driven by ergonomics, and a desire for the same or more spl with fewer boxes to move. Driver size didnt matter to me. "

Yeah I agree I'm not a big fan of the 21s and I was looking at some dual 12 designs for a bit tbh. But I already got a bunch of 18s so I thought continuing to go that way would be best. Most of the horns I've heard I also don't like so that was another reason why I was staying away from the 12 horns due to me prefering the sound of frontloaded bass reflex and assuming horn 12s would have much the same port issues I've heard on 15s and 18s.

Imo spl is great, but you gain extra spl by stacking cabs together, so when talking 1 vs 1 sure each drivers spl matters, but when your talking about a wall of 16x drivers verse 2 your putting alot more cabs next to each other and able to get more spl and drop it lower by doing this. When you only have 1 or 2 cabs your not really couple'n your cabs together cuz its alone or you gota spread them apart so your not taking advantage of the boost you get by stacking them together.

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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2018, 08:03:49 pm »

This is an interesting thread, lot's to learn from the experts response.

However as most here I can't take a day off to read 40 pages of run on sentences and jumbled subjects.

If you could organize your responses and questions so the peanut gallery could follow along.

Thanks!

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 08:07:16 pm »

In otherwords if I buy a 1k watt driver but only feed it 500w its not going to be bumping very hard, so there is no point in overpaying for drivers when I could get twice as many or more by using cheaper 500-600w drivers.

What do you mean bump very hard?

You're only 3dB down when driving that 1kw driver with .5kw that's the threshold of normal people's detecting a change.

It honestly doesn't matter to me what the real world power calculation use is, I work of real world situations not calculations, all I need to know is option 1 blows my brakers if I use the 21s fully and option 2 works fine running a bunch of 18s. I mean I'm not trying to recalculate what I have power for, I already know what I have power for, I can power 16x 18s off each 9.2k genny with enough head room that I can add some lights on one, laptops on another, but not both lights and laptops or else I'll blow brakers again. Real world experience has shown me this in my 8+ shows a year for the last decade, so as much as you guys keep suggesting I know nothing and can do things that I can't do, thats not the reality of my situation.

Woah, woah, woah, wait what? Did I understand you correctly, you're unwilling to do the proper calculations to understand the needs of your gear?

I think you might be confusing speaker watts (not constant-ish) with electrical watts (constant-ish)

I feel like we're getting derailed again here tho by nit picking on shit that doesn't matter like my actual power consumption as if it has anything to do with high eff low wattage cabs or drivers. I mean is the point here to bring anything useful or just berate me with your opinion untill I say I agree with you?

No one here is berating, flaming, or doing anything to harm you.

Lets get back to the main program. I answered all your original questions about if you can post and how to post.

What is it that you are after? Posit a question for the hive mind.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2018, 08:14:34 pm »

Imo spl is great, but you gain extra spl by stacking cabs together, so when talking 1 vs 1 sure each drivers spl matters, but when your talking about a wall of 16x drivers verse 2 your putting alot more cabs next to each other and able to get more spl and drop it lower by doing this. When you only have 1 or 2 cabs your not really couple'n your cabs together cuz its alone or you gota spread them apart so your not taking advantage of the boost you get by stacking them together.

Yes, 3dB for doubling surface area; 3dB for doubling amps/power. Total 6dB for each doublign of cabinents.

Your 16 cabinets have 24dB of gain over 1 cabinet, adding 4x more cabinets will only add 2dB; adding 8x more cabinets will get you 3dB.

THAT is why we keep saying, more powerful less number of speakers will get you MORE. Because adding 2, 4, even 8x more speakers isn't going to help your situation.

In general, 6dB (or dB$) is the smallest change that warrants an upgrade.
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