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Author Topic: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?  (Read 1089 times)

Mike Spade

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Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« on: May 13, 2018, 05:47:44 pm »

Is DIY not alowed here? Or only approved wattages of drivers?

I'm looking to make a dual 18 with winisd however nearly every design I can think of suggesting to talk about would trigger this community to accuse me of "copying their design" despite me redesigning what is honestly a simple box in winisd based upon the drivers I have, instead of the drivers whatever case was orginally made for, making it my own design for whatever drivers I pick since box size, port size and bracing would be different at the very least depending on how I tune it.

So how does one talk about different designs without being accused of "copying" here and being derailed from any actual legitimate subject matter?

Alternatively: how does anyone here produce a "new sub" when everythings been technically made already? Only thing your doing differently is using different drivers and thus different box size/port size and possibly one of 3-4 port styles and port placements (or not in the case of community's s218 thats "the same thing" as a gsub)

I mean doesn't that make every dual 18 bass reflex with a single square center port a gsub? Then is community s218s copying the gsub or is gsub a copy of communitys s218s dual 18? In my opinion they are different due to different drivers, port size, box size and tuning, however they are technically the same bass reflex dual 18 with single square center port design, just tweaked slightly. Am I alowed to even talk about either one of these here or have I already doomed my post to be flamed by putting a named description of a sub cab so you get the same picture in your head that I see in my head? I mean thats the point of all this typing right, to express ideas with descriptive words so you can see or think the same ideas that I see or think... if I didn't say gsub or community s218s would you be able to view both those cabs in your head seperately and see the different details between the two if I had just said two different kinds of dual 18 bass reflex cabs with center ports? I doubt it.

While we're on the subject of what I'm alowed to talk about here; if I don't wish to buy a new high powered amp AND new drivers, why am I not alowed to talk about or ask about *wasting my money* building a cab for 600w drivers *I ALREADY HAVE* powering off a amp *I ALREADY HAVE*?

I mean worse case I waste some wood and throw it out and learn something along the way, I honestly see zero down side to doing it and zero up side to shutting down a low wattage cab thread as if high wattage drivers is the only option to be talked about here if you don't want to be flamed. To suggest to me that I should throw out my amp and the 600w rms drivers, then simply buy new everything is just simply a bad suggestion when we're talking about just some wood and glue.

Flaming me for multiple pages after for not agreeing that I should sell everything and start new is not very helpful, I mean its not going to catch fire if I try, its not going to transform the bass note into a fart sound (unless I make a horn cab lol) again absolute worst case is I waste some money on wood (cuz I got the amp+speakers already) and learn something, I mean again even if the case I make sounds like trash, I can just throw it out and try a different styled design, redesigned for the drivers I'm using and tuned by me into a "new cab design"... But the whole point in talking about designs here is that I'd like to get a idea of what may work for this type of use before building it so I'm not building 5-6 different cases before I get one I'm happy with. Honestly I wouldn't even mind doing a bunch of different cases, I got the room so I could put them head to head in cheap mdf test cases and use the best.
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Kevin McDonough

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2018, 03:56:01 am »

hey

Not sure what this is all in reference too, clearly I must have missed a thread if you feel this way?

In any case, if you want to discuss ideas and designs for speakers, feel free to join up to speakerplans.com. Originally started by the guy behind the Void Acoustics speakers more than 10 years ago, people on there will be happy to discuss designs and try and help you.

In some cases, the same rules will apply in that we don't encourage straight copies or clones of manufacturer's current designs and speaker ranges, but we have no problem in at least using them as reference points when discussing different layouts or features as people work on their own DIY builds.

K
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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2018, 05:59:43 am »

hey

Not sure what this is all in reference too, clearly I must have missed a thread if you feel this way?

In any case, if you want to discuss ideas and designs for speakers, feel free to join up to speakerplans.com. Originally started by the guy behind the Void Acoustics speakers more than 10 years ago, people on there will be happy to discuss designs and try and help you.

In some cases, the same rules will apply in that we don't encourage straight copies or clones of manufacturer's current designs and speaker ranges, but we have no problem in at least using them as reference points when discussing different layouts or features as people work on their own DIY builds.

K

First off thanks for your legitimate and friendly reply.

Don't take this the wrong way, but folks seem rather stuck up here, as if if you don't take their "advise" your some asshole for "not listening to them and arguing with them". I've never had a legitimate thread derailed so hard on any forums as I have here.

Moving on tho.

The idea i wanted to talk about seems to be taboo here since everybody is concreted in the idea that more wattage must automatically mean more sound, they act like 1000w drivers verse 500w drivers must mean theres instantly twice the volume as well, thats not how things work. Sure a higher wattage driver can take more power and that could translate into higher spl but there are plenty of older or high efficiency drivers or cabs that have been working fine for folks for years with huge bass. You think KISS toured with a bunch of 1k or 2k watt 18s? Nah the drivers didn't exist back then, so they designed cabs and drivers with efficiency in mind like the 4x sub box that has a driver pointed down, up, left and right that was big back then, it used low wattage drivers i don't think it was anything over 500w each.

I mean to look at this another way, community came out with the s218 that is a bass reflex double 18 subwoofer they sold for just under 2 grand each in its day. Its got 300watt rms 18s in it for 600w rms 4ohm cabs and produces deafening bass. Sure you could most likely get a 1200w 18 and crank it full of power and you might get a lil more sound, but would it honestly be noticable? And who would notice it? Just the 20 folks able to get close to the subs cuz theres only one? Where as two double 18s spreads out more, makes the bass note wider so more folks can speaker hump and feel it. Lets double up, four double 18s or two single 18s lets you spread that bass note even wider to alow even more folks to be within the sweet spot to be dancing and feeling the bass.

I'm doing outdoors so I've tried 2500w 21 inch subs but cuz they are self powered I can only run like two of them per one genny its redunk how much power they suck somewhere around 4800 per sub. So for me this makes passive the only option since I'm able to stack more speakers using 2ohm.

So basicly the theory here is I could power one 21 inch or like 8x 18s and after renting a wall of yorkie passive 500w 18s for a show, (16 of them total stacked 2 high) my guests and even myself noticed that having a wide wall of 18s was better then having two 21s in the middle or one on each side. So I upgraded my system by buying some more used 18 subs locally, I now have a wall of 10x 18s and it sounds great, however they are in matching pairs that don't match each other... So I'm back to thinking about high efficiency, low wattage cab designs and drivers again since it seems to be what i want for this situation, folks seem to be within 20 to 40 feet of the sound system that is 20 feet wide in front of a 30 foot wide stage, so having a wider bass note gives a wider dancefloor that feels "rocking"

The other half of this theory is price, for the same price as a good 1k or 1.2k driver you could buy at least 4 500-600w driver, the dayton vbss coming quickly to mind when you can buy, build and power them with dsp amp for less then 700 for two, single unpowered cab alone for around 200. One of the good things about the vbss (value buster subwoofer system) is that it use's low cost driver and amp with build in dsp, this built in dsp alows you to run settings to get some insane results out of this sub including a adjustable 17hz or 31hz tuning. Once upon a time I was thinking about making one of these purely to see how it would stand up to outdoor use, but I'd rather design something myself like a bass reflex or something like a community tlf218 or a eaw sb1000 since those all seem have history as being sold with lower wattage drivers.

So i guess thats what it boils down to, I'm looking at high efficiency lower wattage drivers and cab designs. From what i hear the sb1000s from eaw needed alot of extra power to keep up and needed to be properly carved out, a dsp unit like a dbx 260 could do this or I could take a page from the VBSS and get the dps inuke and go 1040w at 2ohm into two 4ohm drivers meaning this one $300 amp could power two double 18s as well as the dsp is there as a crossover. I think this would be required if i built something like the eaw's since from what i read the eaw sb1000s are trash without the rack mount eq bass booster unit thats supposed to go with them.. in theory tho I could do the same settings on a dsp however. The tried and tested gsub style bass reflex cab seems like the most sure way to do this tho to me since its pretty foolproof and sounds the best imo due to no horns or compression paths... But then I look at things like the eaw sb1000s or the community tlf218 and I wonder if bass reflex is really the most efficient way to use 400 to 600w drivers.

Open to suggestions for case designs, or high efficiency driver suggestions, but keep in mind I'm going for quantity here so its gota be stackable (main reason why i liked the sb1000) and its gota be lower wattage or proven to be a good idea or working at lower wattage, again why i keep coming back to the bass reflex dual 18 design.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2018, 07:51:29 am »

Not sure what this is all in reference too, clearly I must have missed a thread if you feel this way?

This

Mike, with as much respect possible, you still seem hung up on wattage.  Until you understand how (little) wattage applies to a speaker's overall SPL and sound quality I don't think this conversation will be any different...and will most likely evolve into "Part 2" of your previous thread.  Best of luck though!
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Kevin McDonough

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2018, 09:44:22 am »

hey

I had a look at the first page of the linked thread, I'll be honest couldn't be bothered reading any more arguments, thought it was better to come on here and start fresh and put all that to bed.

So some thoughts just based on what you've posted here in your descriptions of what you're looking for.

Firstly I don't think there is any harm in making use of the speakers and amps you have already. As you say, it's just a case of some wood/glue/screws to try a different design or two and see if you can find something you're happy with.

And I agree that if you have set the limitations and specifications of what you're looking for in a design, then that's what you should aim for.

However there is always a but....

I do think that, as the discussion became more heated on the other thread, there were a informative and relevant points you passed over, that would have helped you in coming up with your design.

You also have quite a few misunderstandings of physics and power and how speakers work in your description of what you're looking for. You may have experienced particular things, but your reasons for why you think they happened or are mostly wrong unfortunately.

Now you are right that given the same power input, a big wall of 18" speakers may seem to sound better than a single 21. This is mostly to do with cone area though and dispersion being focused by the large radiating area.

But it for the most part is a sound theory in that, if you don't mind the hassle of storing loads of big cabs and having to transport them and move them, then a big pile of cheap cabs (if designed well and in sufficient number etc) can sound great and make as much, if not more, sound than a smaller concentration of expensive cabs.

However as people have mentioned, it's about more than just SPL and watts. Specifically, its about SPL at what frequency.

Subwoofers have changed very much over the years, almost always in the direction of lower frequencies. 20 years ago, a double 18 that could hit -3db at 45Hz would be considered perfectly adequate for most uses. Today, people aim for 30Hz and tickling the high 20s.  As you say, a bigger wattage doesn't equal more SPL per say, but usually for a sub it does equal more low frequencies, that's the way the market has pushed design in recent years. To move this much air and survive, the speaker cone usually needs to be a good bit more robust and have a much bigger Xmax, and this means a more powerful motor system capable of moving that greater mass ever further, increasing power handling and the voice coils needed to handle this extra current/heat in an ever downward spiral trying to squeeze every last ounce out of the system.

If you are still able to find a speaker driver that only takes 500w, chances are it'll not have the ability to hit the low notes the same way. Yes you can probably match the SPL at 50, 60, 75Hz, and you may even
prefer the more punchy sound of the lighter cone for a live band or other types of music, but if you're playing EDM then you'll probably notice and miss that lack of real low end, especially in comparison to a modern pro speaker.

For the most part, THIS is where the extra Watts go, not into going louder but going lower.

And then it comes down to personal choice. If you're happy using cheaper cones en mass that only hit 45Hz or so, then more power to you, you're totally free to do so. But you need to understand things properly and understand what you're missing so you're not left disappointed afterwards.


Now in terms of the actual design, Reflex speakers are actually fairly simple beasts. For the most part, you only really have to think about 2 things: the air volume inside the cabinet and the tuning of the port.

yes when you really get into the details there can be funny tricks with elliptical ports, decisions between one big port and a couple of smaller ones, shelf ports being virtually extended by the sidewalls etc etc. But for the most part they are fairly simple.

However rather than initially worrying about what design of cabinet you use or what features you copy from what brand, what will make a much bigger impact on your sound is (despite your ridiculing of T/S parameters and the software for calculating speakers)  making sure the driver you use matches properly to the cabinet.

You'd be much better looking at a few drivers that are in your price range and trying them in a simulation program, see what kinds of cab volume and port tuning would suit them. Once you've narrowed it down to one or two you think give you the response you need, either look for a free cabinet design that matches this, or it's not too hard to design your own.


I definitely think there was a bit of 50/50 in terms of the way the other thread descended into arguing, and I think if you're able to take a few ideas on board people will be willing to help you get a design you're happy with.



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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 12:06:54 pm »

Hey Mike,

So first, I'm really happy you came back to join us. That's definitely the first step after feeling like someone or something didn't listen or consider your view/idea.

Second, You listed a ton of questions. And I have separated your questions out as they were very embedded in a form of 'ranting.' To answer in turn.

Third, I'm not a speaker cabinet designer so take what I say with some salt.


Is DIY not alowed here?

Is this posted in the LAB subwoofer subforum? Is it a sub you're trying to build?
Yes. Yes.
Then yes, according to the rules

Or only approved wattages of drivers?

Rules. Check. Watts is fine to talk about.

So how does one talk about different designs without being accused of "copying" here and being derailed from any actual legitimate subject matter?

Quote
* You can discuss all subwoofer theory and design concepts. Reverse engineering a manufacturers box so you can build one is out, but concepts and application for any manufactures box are on topic.

Alternatively: how does anyone here produce a "new sub" when everythings been technically made already?

Now this is a good question. Obviously a grey area. It helps to know more about patent infringement, copyright, plagiarism, etc. If we had a patent lawyer here they could easily tell us what we could or could not do in the eyes of the law (now we also need to know about international law, and your specific geographic area's laws, also there's common moral law). Etc.

For me, I would follow what I learned about writing and plagiarism, you can't directly copy (reverse engineer) someone's work without saying you did. In the same vein you can't copy a painting or music or products and sell it (make money via the use of it) and expect to not be fined heavily or jail time. It's even frowned upon for personal use (pirating music/movies, etc).

I get where you're coming from with the idea that "everything has been made already" and to an extent you're right. I think following the rules of the forum and generally acceptable industry standards for building a new product based upon tried and true methods is fine.

Eg. sealed, ported, band pass, bass reflex, horn, isobaric, etc are all well understood designs that you could build. You could take inspirations from multiple sources/manufactures and build a similar box. But what you can't do is copy the dimensions and design EXACTLY and then make money with it. Hopefully that helps clear things up.

I mean doesn't that make every dual 18 bass reflex with a single square center port a gsub?

Then is community s218s copying the gsub or is gsub a copy of communitys s218s dual 18?

See above.

Am I allowed to even talk about either one of these here or have I already doomed my post to be flamed by putting a named description of a sub cab so you get the same picture in your head that I see in my head?

Speaking directly about a product/manufacture is encouraged and even necessary. We must now what you are talking about and to an extent the SYSTEM. In order to provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

if I didn't say gsub or community s218s would you be able to view both those cabs in your head seperately and see the different details between the two if I had just said two different kinds of dual 18 bass reflex cabs with center ports?

Not a question.

why am I not allowed to talk about or ask about *wasting my money* building a cab for 600w drivers *I ALREADY HAVE* powering off a amp *I ALREADY HAVE*?

Did you say: "I have x brand & model speaker. What is the best cabinet I can make to fit these drivers? Oh and I want them to integrate well with y brand & model sub." ?

That's an appropriate question with research and thought and poise. You'll still inveriably obtain answers like: "what speakers are you using, what amps, etc? That is because forum members don't want you to waste time/money on building something that won't integrate into the SYSTEM well.

Flaming me for multiple pages after for not agreeing that I should sell everything and start new is not very helpful, I mean its not going to catch fire if I try, its not going to transform the bass note into a fart sound (unless I make a horn cab lol) again absolute worst case is I waste some money on wood (cuz I got the amp+speakers already) and learn something, I mean again even if the case I make sounds like trash, I can just throw it out and try a different styled design, redesigned for the drivers I'm using and tuned by me into a "new cab design"... But the whole point in talking about designs here is that I'd like to get a idea of what may work for this type of use before building it so I'm not building 5-6 different cases before I get one I'm happy with. Honestly I wouldn't even mind doing a bunch of different cases, I got the room so I could put them head to head in cheap mdf test cases and use the best.

Could we agree to one thing before we proceed?

Learning is best done, NOT by DOING, but by learning from other's mistakes. Otherwise everyone would have to do something proven wrong/not wise before they could learn anything. That's not an efficient way to learn. Building upon past success enables us to skip those parts and instead improve upon our current understanding. Not that understanding the fundamentals isn't necessary though, just that we don't have to prove to ourselves that the fundamentals work.

IF we can agree to that then lets proceed.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 12:09:13 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 01:30:10 pm »

The idea i wanted to talk about seems to be taboo here since everybody is concreted in the idea that more wattage must automatically mean more sound, they act like 1000w drivers verse 500w drivers must mean theres instantly twice the volume as well, thats not how things work. Sure a higher wattage driver can take more power and that could translate into higher spl but there are plenty of older or high efficiency drivers or cabs that have been working fine for folks for years with huge bass. You think KISS toured with a bunch of 1k or 2k watt 18s? Nah the drivers didn't exist back then, so they designed cabs and drivers with efficiency in mind like the 4x sub box that has a driver pointed down, up, left and right that was big back then, it used low wattage drivers i don't think it was anything over 500w each.

Lets take a look at this.

The EV 18"s that were used in a lot of designs a while back was the EVX-180B. It's a 600w driver, and features 6mm of Xmax. Today, the B&C 18SW115 features 1700w power handling, and 16mm of one-way travel (according to B&C's distortion-based testing).
The B&C unit can move more air than a pair of the old EV units, almost as much as three. It can also take the power inputs required to do that.
The cone is also a lot tougher on the B&C unit, meaning it can be put into horns with high compression ratios without ill effects. The EV cones would likely fold when subject to that sort of pressure.

In short, the modern B&C unit is much much more suited for producing bass than the old EV unit. If you had 2x B&Cs, you'd need about 5x EVs to match outputs, and then you've got to move all those cabinets!


Go back a while, and low-frequency extension wasn't a huge deal, so you could get very efficient cabinets for 50Hz and upwards. Today, you can still do that, and the 50Hz boxes will be louder than ever. Alternatively, you can drop to <30Hz and match the SPL of an older cabinet that'd stop at 50Hz. With modern music demanding more and more very-low-frequency content, a lot of manufacturers are aiming for those bottom notes.

The efficiency of a cabinet across the frequency range can be calculated using the driver's Thiele-Small parameters and the cabinet's dimensions. You can also find out what happens at high power. Modern simulation tools are getting really good, and I highly recommend you check them out.

Chris
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Mike Spade

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 06:06:36 pm »

hey

I had a look at the first page of the linked thread, I'll be honest couldn't be bothered reading any more arguments, thought it was better to come on here and start fresh and put all that to bed.

So some thoughts just based on what you've posted here in your descriptions of what you're looking for.

Firstly I don't think there is any harm in making use of the speakers and amps you have already. As you say, it's just a case of some wood/glue/screws to try a different design or two and see if you can find something you're happy with.

And I agree that if you have set the limitations and specifications of what you're looking for in a design, then that's what you should aim for.

However there is always a but....

I do think that, as the discussion became more heated on the other thread, there were a informative and relevant points you passed over, that would have helped you in coming up with your design.

You also have quite a few misunderstandings of physics and power and how speakers work in your description of what you're looking for. You may have experienced particular things, but your reasons for why you think they happened or are mostly wrong unfortunately.

Now you are right that given the same power input, a big wall of 18" speakers may seem to sound better than a single 21. This is mostly to do with cone area though and dispersion being focused by the large radiating area.

But it for the most part is a sound theory in that, if you don't mind the hassle of storing loads of big cabs and having to transport them and move them, then a big pile of cheap cabs (if designed well and in sufficient number etc) can sound great and make as much, if not more, sound than a smaller concentration of expensive cabs.

However as people have mentioned, it's about more than just SPL and watts. Specifically, its about SPL at what frequency.

Subwoofers have changed very much over the years, almost always in the direction of lower frequencies. 20 years ago, a double 18 that could hit -3db at 45Hz would be considered perfectly adequate for most uses. Today, people aim for 30Hz and tickling the high 20s.  As you say, a bigger wattage doesn't equal more SPL per say, but usually for a sub it does equal more low frequencies, that's the way the market has pushed design in recent years. To move this much air and survive, the speaker cone usually needs to be a good bit more robust and have a much bigger Xmax, and this means a more powerful motor system capable of moving that greater mass ever further, increasing power handling and the voice coils needed to handle this extra current/heat in an ever downward spiral trying to squeeze every last ounce out of the system.

If you are still able to find a speaker driver that only takes 500w, chances are it'll not have the ability to hit the low notes the same way. Yes you can probably match the SPL at 50, 60, 75Hz, and you may even
prefer the more punchy sound of the lighter cone for a live band or other types of music, but if you're playing EDM then you'll probably notice and miss that lack of real low end, especially in comparison to a modern pro speaker.

For the most part, THIS is where the extra Watts go, not into going louder but going lower.

And then it comes down to personal choice. If you're happy using cheaper cones en mass that only hit 45Hz or so, then more power to you, you're totally free to do so. But you need to understand things properly and understand what you're missing so you're not left disappointed afterwards.


Now in terms of the actual design, Reflex speakers are actually fairly simple beasts. For the most part, you only really have to think about 2 things: the air volume inside the cabinet and the tuning of the port.

yes when you really get into the details there can be funny tricks with elliptical ports, decisions between one big port and a couple of smaller ones, shelf ports being virtually extended by the sidewalls etc etc. But for the most part they are fairly simple.

However rather than initially worrying about what design of cabinet you use or what features you copy from what brand, what will make a much bigger impact on your sound is (despite your ridiculing of T/S parameters and the software for calculating speakers)  making sure the driver you use matches properly to the cabinet.

You'd be much better looking at a few drivers that are in your price range and trying them in a simulation program, see what kinds of cab volume and port tuning would suit them. Once you've narrowed it down to one or two you think give you the response you need, either look for a free cabinet design that matches this, or it's not too hard to design your own.


I definitely think there was a bit of 50/50 in terms of the way the other thread descended into arguing, and I think if you're able to take a few ideas on board people will be willing to help you get a design you're happy with.

I agree with some things you've said, others not so much so lets just dive into it.

"""""Now you are right that given the same power input, a big wall of 18" speakers may seem to sound better than a single 21. This is mostly to do with cone area though and dispersion being focused by the large radiating area.

But it for the most part is a sound theory in that, if you don't mind the hassle of storing loads of big cabs and having to transport them and move them, then a big pile of cheap cabs (if designed well and in sufficient number etc) can sound great and make as much, if not more, sound than a smaller concentration of expensive cabs. """"""

This is my entire point I feel everybody is missing. Sure the single 21 can go lower then 30hz, do I care? Not really. Am I using this for home audio? No. So I feel my 30hz low end cuts on 30hz subs is just fine, like you've said, things have evolved over the years and not every 500w driver is doomed to 45-50hz+ as if its a 15 inch full range driver in a 2-way cab. Off the top of my head, the FTR18-4080F goes down to 30hz and is 600w with a 4 inch voice coil, they sound amazing and I'm debating trying to make a case based upon those. BUT I also already own a pair of rvp 18's that go down to 25hz at 600w (this is where the flames start) that I'd like to design a case for since I think I could get good results and the drivers are dirt cheap, less then half the price of the FTR's, so I'd be able to buy/build more of them.

I have unlimited storage, "storing too many cabs" is not a issue for me.

I have people to help me move cabs, "moving too many cabs" is not a issue for me.

I rent a 26 foot uhaul truck that costs me $130 for the entire gig there and back, "too many cabs to transport" is not a issue for me.

I cut my subs at 30hz so "but you could go lower" isn't really something that matters much to me since these are not being used for home audio and 30hz seems to be plenty of bass.

These are all points brought up as reasons why having a higher powered single sub is better then having 8 lower wattage subs, however they matter to you guys, not me, these are moot points in my world and don't factor into the choice at all, so forgive me if I don't act like these change my mind, since these points do not change my mind.

THESE ~do~ factor into the choice:

1:
Power consumption. I'm outdoors, this means I run 3x 9.2k watt gennys in order to power everything. For the same power as two 2500w 21 inch self powered subs (that pull around 4500-4800/each outa the genny), I could power 16x 500w 18s.

2:
Listening range. Again we're outdoors, not in a stuffy room easily maxed by one high wattage driver. This means that people will be standing in a wide area instead of crumpled together in a small stuffy room. The stage itself is 30 feet wide with dance platforms/projection towers, so that gives us 20 feet in the middle for speaker space. People generally are dancing close range from 1 foot to 20 feet away from the stage, maybe as far as 40 feet. Having a larger/wider wall of bass alows for a wider "closer to the bass" field in front of the stage then having 2 single 21s and stacking them 2 high alows people to feel a full body bass hit instead of just feeling the bass coming down low, they get hit with bass in their face and upper chest.

3:
My opinion. At the end of the day its my money, my time and my choice, it seems people forget that when demanding that I follow them towards options that I've already disregarded as not the one for me due to legitimate testing and experience trying different things. But if I say its not for me, then I'm "arguing and not listening" by pointing out what matters to me isn't what matters to them.

4: I have no way of making a high powered wall of bass on genny power without spending more then my system is worth on a tow-along genny that could power a city block. Its impossible without having a array of gennys (I hope I never get there, 3 is already a good gas suck and a pain to keep full when I'm doing all weekend)

So I mean to have 10 pages suggesting what I'm being clear won't work for me while trying to talk about high eff, low power drivers & cabs just was extremely upsetting since nobody wanted to stay on the subject I wished to talk about and wouldn't take "no" for a reply cuz they assumed I was "just not listening to them well enough" if I didn't agree with them due to the reasons I've outlined above.

I mean I've physically tested it, both myself and my guests all prefer a 2 stack tall wall of 18s over 2x high wattage 21s. I mean the 21s have 5 times the wattage going to them so I understand why you guys are demanding they must be better, and if you had unlimited power and you could put them 1 for 1 you'd be totally right, but we're talking about 8 to 1 here and honestly, I don't agree that 1 is better then 8 when your talking about limited power and trying to create a wider and higher up in your face bassnote.

Hey Mike,

So first, I'm really happy you came back to join us. That's definitely the first step after feeling like someone or something didn't listen or consider your view/idea.

Second, You listed a ton of questions. And I have separated your questions out as they were very embedded in a form of 'ranting.' To answer in turn.

Third, I'm not a speaker cabinet designer so take what I say with some salt.


Is this posted in the LAB subwoofer subforum? Is it a sub you're trying to build?
Yes. Yes.
Then yes, according to the rules

Rules. Check. Watts is fine to talk about.

Now this is a good question. Obviously a grey area. It helps to know more about patent infringement, copyright, plagiarism, etc. If we had a patent lawyer here they could easily tell us what we could or could not do in the eyes of the law (now we also need to know about international law, and your specific geographic area's laws, also there's common moral law). Etc.

For me, I would follow what I learned about writing and plagiarism, you can't directly copy (reverse engineer) someone's work without saying you did. In the same vein you can't copy a painting or music or products and sell it (make money via the use of it) and expect to not be fined heavily or jail time. It's even frowned upon for personal use (pirating music/movies, etc).

I get where you're coming from with the idea that "everything has been made already" and to an extent you're right. I think following the rules of the forum and generally acceptable industry standards for building a new product based upon tried and true methods is fine.

Eg. sealed, ported, band pass, bass reflex, horn, isobaric, etc are all well understood designs that you could build. You could take inspirations from multiple sources/manufactures and build a similar box. But what you can't do is copy the dimensions and design EXACTLY and then make money with it. Hopefully that helps clear things up.

See above.

Speaking directly about a product/manufacture is encouraged and even necessary. We must now what you are talking about and to an extent the SYSTEM. In order to provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

Not a question.

Did you say: "I have x brand & model speaker. What is the best cabinet I can make to fit these drivers? Oh and I want them to integrate well with y brand & model sub." ?

That's an appropriate question with research and thought and poise. You'll still inveriably obtain answers like: "what speakers are you using, what amps, etc? That is because forum members don't want you to waste time/money on building something that won't integrate into the SYSTEM well.

Could we agree to one thing before we proceed?

Learning is best done, NOT by DOING, but by learning from other's mistakes. Otherwise everyone would have to do something proven wrong/not wise before they could learn anything. That's not an efficient way to learn. Building upon past success enables us to skip those parts and instead improve upon our current understanding. Not that understanding the fundamentals isn't necessary though, just that we don't have to prove to ourselves that the fundamentals work.

IF we can agree to that then lets proceed.

I agree with some and disagree with others of what you've said so lets just dive into it!

"""I get where you're coming from with the idea that "everything has been made already" and to an extent you're right. I think following the rules of the forum and generally acceptable industry standards for building a new product based upon tried and true methods is fine.

Eg. sealed, ported, band pass, bass reflex, horn, isobaric, etc are all well understood designs that you could build. You could take inspirations from multiple sources/manufactures and build a similar box. But what you can't do is copy the dimensions and design EXACTLY and then make money with it. Hopefully that helps clear things up."""

I agree with you in some parts here, nobody is trying to "brake the rules" by reverse engineering, but in my last thread I was accused of exactly that by trying to talk about different sub case designs in an attempt to see a range of lower wattage driver cabs.... I started talking about that knowing full well I couldn't source the drivers anymore for the orginal eaw sb1000's for example, yet everybody was jumping down my throat as if I was going to "copy" them OR EVEN COULD copy them without the orginal drivers they where made for, by talking about them as a suggested idea to put verse other ideas such as a gsub or bass reflex design like communitys s218.

I think the part we agree upon is that even if we played devils advocate for a second, "even if I did" try to *copy* the eaw cab, it wouldn't actually be a copy since the dimensions wouldn't be exactly the same since it would have to be redesigned for whatever drivers you use in it since you can't get the orginal drivers anymore. That would include changing port size or how long it is, most likely your overall box volume as well, effecting your overall tune... making it "look" very much like the same thing but not actually being the same thing since its tuned differently, with different drivers, with different dimentions of the case, making it its own new thing. I mean if you look at a ookpik sw218-c, first thing you'll say is "thats a eaw sb1000" then if you look closer to it you'll see that the ports are different and the box volume is different and it use's different drivers effecting the overall tune and how it was built. So is the ookpik sw218-c really a copy of the eaw sb1000 or is it its own thing? In my opinion its its own thing since it has taken a close concept and made it their own, much like every bass reflex double 18 with a single center slot port that looks like a gsub has been doing for years. I mean who even made the first gsub? Seems like everybody and their brothers company is either making them or has made them in the past.

The point is trying to talk about designs without bring'n up already made cases that use parts of those designs restricts talks and passing of information if I need to dance around things like using other companies speakers to compare design aspects that could work for my build.

"""You could take inspirations from multiple sources/manufactures and build a similar box. But what you can't do is copy the dimensions and design EXACTLY and then make money with it."""""

This is exactly what I'm suggesting, since even if I was to make a case like one I already own, it would need to be redesigned based upon the drivers and would then be a different case with different volume, port size ect and wouldn't be a direct copy due to this, so I don't see the harm in talking about different speaker builds to try and find out what design type I may want to start looking at.

"""""""""Did you say: "I have x brand & model speaker. What is the best cabinet I can make to fit these drivers? Oh and I want them to integrate well with y brand & model sub." ?

That's an appropriate question with research and thought and poise. You'll still inveriably obtain answers like: "what speakers are you using, what amps, etc? That is because forum members don't want you to waste time/money on building something that won't integrate into the SYSTEM well.""""""


I DID actually make a suggestion. I suggested the rockville rvp 600w drivers since I already own a pair and they are beyond dirt cheap, they go down to 25hz, eat 600w no problems and I've already tested the crap out of them. I had someone blow one of my yorkville double 18 drivers at a show years ago before I bought the dbx 266 compressor/limiter, a new one from long n mcquade was $450. So I spent $150 canadian with shipping on TWO of these rockville 18s so I could have some working cabs till I could save up for the orginal driver to get a matching pair again.

This is the part where the flames started, after suggesting the rvp 18 everybody went into full flame mode since theres no way a $60 driver at 600w could ever sound good according to everybody, no way it could go down to 25hz or even 50hz. So I mean I tested it. I cut the top end at 50hz and its got plenty of sub 50hz bass to make. I run them side by side in the other matching cab and they keep up, I can't really tell the difference between them in all honesty and due to that I never felt the need to grab the $450 driver since these two rockville "temp till I get the $450" ones are pounding hard.

Telling people a $60 usd driver isn't as trash as they think it is, is a hard task when they are concreted on "more watter is better, higher price is better, these approved name brands are better" and they may be right when talking about 1 vs 1 but they are wrong when it comes to this situation due to things like limited power consumption due to being outdoor gennys, it will never be 1 vs 1 due to simple power requirements, so the arguement then becomes is 1 worth 4 to 8? And will it produce as WIDE of a bass note (not louder or lower, but wider to cover a larger area that feels close to the bass)

I mean hate to bring this up again but the VBSS use's a $90 driver and hits 17hz or 31hz depending on if you take the middle part of the stock port tube. With the right build, the right driver and the right dsp behind it you can do great things, to suggest every driver under 1k watts is insantly trash and can't be used for anything OR can't go low is just false, its not true.

"""""Learning is best done, NOT by DOING, but by learning from other's mistakes. Otherwise everyone would have to do something proven wrong/not wise before they could learn anything. That's not an efficient way to learn. Building upon past success enables us to skip those parts and instead improve upon our current understanding. Not that understanding the fundamentals isn't necessary though, just that we don't have to prove to ourselves that the fundamentals work.

IF we can agree to that then lets proceed."""

Not sure I agree with this.

So lets say you try something and in your opinion its not for you. You tell person 2 that option B is better since option A didn't work for you. Person 2 takes your word for it and doesn't try option A, goes straight into option B. What if person 2 finds out later down the road that the reasons you picked option B over option A don't really apply to him and he would've been better off going with option A? Should he then tell person 3 that option A is better cuz its better for him despite knowing option B was better for his friend due to them both being in different situations, having different requirements and caring about different things?

My point is that just cuz someone is giving you "advise" doesn't mean its good advise or the option you should take.

I mean if nobody challenged ideas we would be cavemen still, there would be no science advancement if everybody just took someones word for it or accepted that as the way it is without trying or testing it.

I mean perfect example is people telling me that a 21 inch 2500w driver would be better then a bunch of 18s, I didn't meet anyone on any forums that said otherwise. But "better" is a subjective word based upon opinion, this isn't fact this is opinions based upon numbers on paper thats why you think its so matter of fact when its not, its not real world experience in most cases. So I feel my real world experience of actually having physically done the testing of 2x 21s verse 16x 18s accounts for more then numbers crunched on paper, when I can see it works better for my situation. Will it work better for your situation with limited storage space, limited transport space, bad back with nobody to help you move your shit? Prob not! But I'm not in the same situation as you without storage, without large box transport or without people to help, so those don't factor into my choice at all where these seem to be the top of the list for alot of users here due to the replies I'm getting.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:19:02 pm by Mike Spade »
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 06:40:31 pm »

Power consumption. I'm outdoors, this means I run 3x 9.2k watt gennys in order to power everything. For the same power as two 2500w 21 inch self powered subs (that pull around 4500-4800/each outa the genny), I could power 16x 500w 18s.

Back to watts again - I think you're severely overestimating your real-world power consumption.  I understand that you have limited power, and it's a legitimate concern.  Unless you're adding a few coffee urns to go with your subs I think you're selling yourself short.  There are some good threads here about what systems actually consume in real conditions.  Definitely worth a read.  I can run my entire sound system on 1 of those generators so long as I pay attention to what I'm doing.

These are all points brought up as reasons why having a higher powered single sub is better then having 8 lower wattage subs, however they matter to you guys, not me, these are moot points in my world and don't factor into the choice at all, so forgive me if I don't act like these change my mind, since these points do not change my mind.

...

I mean I've physically tested it, both myself and my guests all prefer a 2 stack tall wall of 18s over 2x high wattage 21s. I mean the 21s have 5 times the wattage going to them so I understand why you guys are demanding they must be better, and if you had unlimited power and you could put them 1 for 1 you'd be totally right, but we're talking about 8 to 1 here and honestly, I don't agree that 1 is better then 8 when your talking about limited power and trying to create a wider and higher up in your face bassnote.

I think you'll find yourself in the minority here.  Did you and your guests actually walk the venue with measuring equipment, or did your eyes become your ears here?  Looks sell, there's no doubt about it.  Having a visually impressive system is important to some people.  My hunch though is that at the end of the day your "wall of sound" will cost more, use more energy, consume more manpower, and sound WORSE than a few carefully selected AND deployed subwoofers. 

Why don't we take a step back...and forget about wattage for a second!  Before getting hung up on specifics, what performance do you need out of your subs (SPL/frequency/etc.).  What's your budget?  What do you need out of your new system that your existing system can't do?  Answering these basic questions will help provide more useful answers that can take things in a constructive direction.  Playing to a crowd 40ft back is nothing.  One of my routine venues measures about 200ft to the back of the field, and that's still small chips compared to what others here do.  Are you possibly overthinking this? 
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Winisd dual 18, what am I alowed to ask about here?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 07:33:20 pm »

Back to watts again - I think you're severely overestimating your real-world power consumption.  I understand that you have limited power, and it's a legitimate concern.  Unless you're adding a few coffee urns to go with your subs I think you're selling yourself short.  There are some good threads here about what systems actually consume in real conditions. 


Jeff makes a good point here  :)

Thread on Power Draw

In particular, Tim's response:

...when I plan for electrical needs I use the figures published by the amp manufacturer for 1/8 continuous power (occasional clipping) multiplied by 1.20 as my basis for the tops, and 1/3 continuous power for subwoofer amps.  Crown and QSC have this data readily available on their web sites, and I'd expect others to offer such specifications too.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:37:37 pm by Matthias McCready »
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