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[Brad Jekko]

I was thinking of using  a couple of 12" + 1" bins as front fill to fill out the dance floor and try to get some more midrange through them to the crowd sitting at the back of the room.  These speakers angle back about 25-30% degrees from vertical - less than a monitor.  I am also thinking a completely vertical (unslanted) arrangement might be better.  1) to not project too much into the ceiling, 2) to get more penetration through the dance floor by aiming at peoples legs rather than torsos and 3) so that the the phase might align better with the L and R bins to each side, which will probably be 15"+1.5"s.

I would need to mount the 12s down on their sides in a cradle of some sort to get the speaker front at a 90 degrees plane to the floor and could also achieve a little bit of clearance from the floor by doing so.  Either way I would put carpet down to limit the frequencies bouncing of the floor.

Another problem is how to set them up. Obviously on their side, but, tightly horn to horn or woofer to woofer, or the third way?  And could they be set apart a few feet to allow a sub to fit in between them, or would this create negative phase issues?

The speakers I have have an 85 x 85 degree pattern, I can see that a line array (or 2 stacked vertically) at around 40 degrees vertical coverage would be much better for the job of not pumping sound into the floor and ceiling, but they are still overpriced compared to the older style speakers.

[Chris Grimshaw]

Are these the Yamaha and JBL cabinets?

IIRC, the advice towards the end of your last thread was good - use the JBL 12"s for mid-high, and the Yamaha 15"s for whatever low end you can get out of them. Upgrade to subwoofers as/when budget allows.

Trying to push midrange "through" a dancefloor isn't going to work - humans absorb well at those frequencies. You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.

Chris

[Brad Jekko]

Are these the Yamaha and JBL cabinets?

IIRC, the advice towards the end of your last thread was good - use the JBL 12"s for mid-high, and the Yamaha 15"s for whatever low end you can get out of them. Upgrade to subwoofers as/when budget allows.

Trying to push midrange "through" a dancefloor isn't going to work - humans absorb well at those frequencies. You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.

Chris

Ah yes Chris, exactly, I've got a HH Vx450 power amp (a bit underpowered at 500W mono) to run the 12s and an MC2 T1500 power amp to run the 15s....but I am close to accessing some more JBL 15s as L and R.  I am more confident to put rock music through the 15s for projection, and use the 12s as front fill to give the people on the floor and close up a bit more detail, and to serve as a mono core (dryer) sound, allowing for more panning and wetter fx from the 15s.

The yamaha 15s I can use as drum fill, outfill etc. I will need another bigger amp to run the  JBL 15s, like a CA9 Crest or similar.

When I get subs I am thinking powered 15"subs, 2 each side, under the JBL 15s on sticks, or using the Yamaha 15s or empty cabs just as a spacer. The best thing about putting the yamahas here between the midhighs and the subs is that I can splay the Yamahas out to each side for outdoor gigs and they will widen the coverage as a kind of out fill.

What do you think about 2 x12s as front fill, and the problem of slanting them, when the rest of the PA is straight flat on?

[Brad Jekko]

You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.

Yes, I intend to do what I can about height but there aren't any tall sticks with an adjustable tilt I have come across, I was thinking of engineering just that but line arrays look so much better and within a few years they should be really affordable too.

[David Morison]

Yes, I intend to do what I can about height but there aren't any tall sticks with an adjustable tilt I have come across, I was thinking of engineering just that but line arrays look so much better and within a few years they should be really affordable too.

For smaller speakers you can get by with these, for slightly bigger speakers you would need these to go between your normal speaker stands/poles and the speaker themselves.
That's if you don't decide to sell up all you have in favour of more modern speakers, many of which already have down-tilt as an option in their speaker pole socket already.

HTH,
David.

[Lee Douglas]

With all due respect, I think your confusing three different things here
Front Fill: To provide limited coverage for the first several rows that are not adequate covered by the left and right stacks, usually on the lip of a raised stage, with a low profile speaker with specific dispersion characteristics.
Balcony Fills: To provide time aligned, and again limited, coverage areas at the back of the venue also specific areas not covered well by the left and right mains.

Other fills are generally part of an installed system and have all of the math done ahead of time.  Delay stacks can help reinforce sound further out, but unless your working stadiums or specifically need the coverage due to physical limitations of the venue, properly deployed mains should cover most of the venue.  Adding speakers for the sake of adding speakers can be much more detrimental than helpful to your sound by creating several different arrival times.

Unless you are working with a very wide venue, a more prudent use of resources might be to look into purchasing better left and right mains that cover your audience better. 

[Tim McCulloch]

With all due respect, I think your confusing three different things here
Front Fill: To provide limited coverage for the first several rows that are not adequate covered by the left and right stacks, usually on the lip of a raised stage, with a low profile speaker with specific dispersion characteristics.
Balcony Fills: To provide time aligned, and again limited, coverage areas at the back of the venue also specific areas not covered well by the left and right mains.

Other fills are generally part of an installed system and have all of the math done ahead of time.  Delay stacks can help reinforce sound further out, but unless your working stadiums or specifically need the coverage due to physical limitations of the venue, properly deployed mains should cover most of the venue.  Adding speakers for the sake of adding speakers can be much more detrimental than helpful to your sound by creating several different arrival times.

Unless you are working with a very wide venue, a more prudent use of resources might be to look into purchasing better left and right mains that cover your audience better.

^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

For Brad:

The main PA should cover as much of the room as possible.  Front fills do just that, fill in the hole in the first couple of rows of the audience (think of theater seating setup or punters against the barricade) that are not in the direct coverage of the mains.

Balcony and under-balcony fills are used to supplement the main PA; the loudspeakers are painstakingly selected to cover only the specific area needing coverage; they are time-aligned to the mains and the levels carefully set so you don't notice them working, unless they don't work.

If you're playing bars, clubs or venues where the audience has a choice about where they sit/stand I'd assert that most of the folks in back are there because it's quieter.  Puting more SPL on them will only annoy them.

If you're doing performances where everyone in the venue is expecting the same experience, system design is not trivial.

[Xiang Cao]

RCF HDL6A

[Henry Cohen]

. . . most of the folks in back are there because it's quieter.  Puting more SPL on them will only annoy them.

To quote Tim,   ^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

(Just channeling my inner curmudgeon)

[Steve Garris]

As others have said, if midrange clarity is lacking back at the audience listening point, then adding more speakers isn't going to fix that.

I work at a club that has a nice, dual mono JBL point-source system installed, and a tall stage that people stand in front of. When I have a band that has all IEM's, I take two monitors on the lip and turn them around, just for those center audience people. I use an aux mix with just vocals and keys, and I hi-pass any sub content. I adjust the volume of these depending on how many people are in front of the stage.

[Rob Spence]

To quote Tim,   ^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

(Just channeling my inner curmudgeon)

Henry, you beat me to it.


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[Brad Jekko]

I am getting the feedback about how adding more speakers is likely to subtract rather than add from the experience, but front fill as the dry mono part of an LCR system seems like a reasonable goal to try to achieve to some degree.  Especially with only bass, drums, vox and guitar on stage, I can pan and add more fx and leave some more vox through the mono speakers in the middle.  I intend for the front fill to compliment the L and R, not actually be the center of an LCR system. More of an L (c) R system really.  It would at least add to the sound for those close up, even if it doesn't add to the overall sound further back.  It might be I have only created a system that sounds good close, and worse at the back, but I can always back the front fill out of the mix, once the room fills.

But back to the question of the post, I want to know is do you all run front fills with the front of the speaker at a 90 degree angle to the floor or do you have them slanted back a little bit like a monitor?  And is there any advantage in pushing the 1" horn ends of the bins tightly against each other, so that it seems like one horn at the front of the stage, likewise would the 12 woofers pushed up against each other work?

[Luke Geis]

It goes without saying that if there isn't enough coverage in the front of stage area, that FF will be needed.

What makes FF's work? The idea is simple. They are placed on the lip of the stage, typically in the lowest profile position ( on there sides ) and are set to be in time with the mains. They are typically band limited ( lows rolled off ) so that only the relevant media needed to hit the listeners ears is produced. Since the stage is usually lower in height than the mains are usually placed, the FF's can't really be heard more than a few rows back. This is because there are usually blood bags in the way, and because they should be low enough in volume that by the time you are in the coverage of the mains, the FF's just disappear. Since the FF's are timed to the mains, you don't really notice them once you are in the full coverage of the mains. 

How many FF's and where on the front of the stage is dependent upon how well the mains cover. If the mains are directly off side stage and are pointed pretty much straight out, a single FF in the center of the stage can usually do the trick. If the stage is really wide and the mains far apart as well, you may need three or four FF's to cover the front area. The concept is the same either way. Put sound where it currently isn't.

The best FF speakers are usually smaller in size and designed to lay flat on their sides. You typically don't want to use full size model speakers stood up in their normal orientation. They would just be too obtrusive with that type and orientation. I typically use a set of Vue Audiotechnik i-2X4.5 model speakers for FF laid on their sides and they not only sound fantastic, but are really low profile. The beauty of these units is that they are rather cheap and sound really good and are easy to power. They can make be fitted with speakon connectors as well. 

[David Winners]

You are designing a system that will sound different at every location and good in none of them. The less sources of sound, the better. If you take 2 mediocre (or even good) speakers and add them together, they will sound worse than either one alone.

There is a time and place for fill speakers. Your general club gig isn't one of them IMHO. Well implemented fills don't add anything perceptible. You shouldn't notice them unless they are off. They should only add what is missing because of holes in your coverage. The objective of front fills is not to add a center (c or C) source of audio to the room.

A more common use for fills, barring installs,  is in a festival type setting where you want coverage in an area that the FOH system will not reach because of distance or coverage angle. 

If you start trying to increase the midrange in the room by blasting front fills at the punters knees or at the ceiling above the dance floor, you're going to end up with a soup sandwich.

If your speakers don't sound like you want them to and no amount of processing you have tried makes them acceptable, your only solution is to get better sounding speakers.

[Stephen Kirby]

There is a deployment called in fill.  If you manage to get your mains up high and projecting to the back of the room it is sometimes possible to have smaller speakers below the aimed inwards to get the vocals above the volume of the stage wash right in front.  To do this successfully you need to keep the in fills from interacting with the mains as much as possible.  As Luke said, this means high passing them to minimize the interference at lower frequencies where you don't have pattern control and the wavelengths are long enough to create large noticeable nodes and holes right where your most interested patrons are.  Typically the wash from subs keeps the in fills from sounding excessively bright.  But in your situation, you don't have subs.  I get that you are still trying to get as much use as possible of the boxes you have.  What folks are trying to tell you is that more is not necessarily better.  Especially when mixing dissimilar boxes.  Sell the Yamahas and get some subs.  Even if they are old Peaveys or EV Force.  Put the 12's up over them.  That will give you the most sound with the least investment.

[Dave Garoutte]

When I use fills, I run them on a separate aux out and put primarily vocals and non-amplified instruments in them.  The stage wash of drums, bass and guitars needs no help close to the stage.  Their primary purpose is to fill in the short triangular area in front of the stage that gets missed by the mains.

[dave briar]

When I use fills, I run them on a separate aux out and put primarily vocals and non-amplified instruments in them.  The stage wash of drums, bass and guitars needs no help close to the stage.  Their primary purpose is to fill in the short triangular area in front of the stage that gets missed by the mains.

^^ this--simply said ^^

[Steve Garris]

^^ this--simply said ^^

Yep - what I said in post #9.

[ProSoundWeb Community]