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Author Topic: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..  (Read 11295 times)

Brad Jekko

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How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« on: May 13, 2018, 06:05:50 AM »

I was thinking of using  a couple of 12" + 1" bins as front fill to fill out the dance floor and try to get some more midrange through them to the crowd sitting at the back of the room.  These speakers angle back about 25-30% degrees from vertical - less than a monitor.  I am also thinking a completely vertical (unslanted) arrangement might be better.  1) to not project too much into the ceiling, 2) to get more penetration through the dance floor by aiming at peoples legs rather than torsos and 3) so that the the phase might align better with the L and R bins to each side, which will probably be 15"+1.5"s.

I would need to mount the 12s down on their sides in a cradle of some sort to get the speaker front at a 90 degrees plane to the floor and could also achieve a little bit of clearance from the floor by doing so.  Either way I would put carpet down to limit the frequencies bouncing of the floor.

Another problem is how to set them up. Obviously on their side, but, tightly horn to horn or woofer to woofer, or the third way?  And could they be set apart a few feet to allow a sub to fit in between them, or would this create negative phase issues?

The speakers I have have an 85 x 85 degree pattern, I can see that a line array (or 2 stacked vertically) at around 40 degrees vertical coverage would be much better for the job of not pumping sound into the floor and ceiling, but they are still overpriced compared to the older style speakers.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:15:06 AM by Brad Alvin »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 06:53:21 AM »

Are these the Yamaha and JBL cabinets?

IIRC, the advice towards the end of your last thread was good - use the JBL 12"s for mid-high, and the Yamaha 15"s for whatever low end you can get out of them. Upgrade to subwoofers as/when budget allows.

Trying to push midrange "through" a dancefloor isn't going to work - humans absorb well at those frequencies. You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.

Chris
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Brad Jekko

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 07:32:55 AM »

Are these the Yamaha and JBL cabinets?

IIRC, the advice towards the end of your last thread was good - use the JBL 12"s for mid-high, and the Yamaha 15"s for whatever low end you can get out of them. Upgrade to subwoofers as/when budget allows.

Trying to push midrange "through" a dancefloor isn't going to work - humans absorb well at those frequencies. You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.

Chris

Ah yes Chris, exactly, I've got a HH Vx450 power amp (a bit underpowered at 500W mono) to run the 12s and an MC2 T1500 power amp to run the 15s....but I am close to accessing some more JBL 15s as L and R.  I am more confident to put rock music through the 15s for projection, and use the 12s as front fill to give the people on the floor and close up a bit more detail, and to serve as a mono core (dryer) sound, allowing for more panning and wetter fx from the 15s.

The yamaha 15s I can use as drum fill, outfill etc. I will need another bigger amp to run the  JBL 15s, like a CA9 Crest or similar.

When I get subs I am thinking powered 15"subs, 2 each side, under the JBL 15s on sticks, or using the Yamaha 15s or empty cabs just as a spacer. The best thing about putting the yamahas here between the midhighs and the subs is that I can splay the Yamahas out to each side for outdoor gigs and they will widen the coverage as a kind of out fill.

What do you think about 2 x12s as front fill, and the problem of slanting them, when the rest of the PA is straight flat on?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 08:06:32 AM by Brad Alvin »
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Brad Jekko

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 07:49:14 AM »


You want your mid-high section up high, and aimed downwards.


Yes, I intend to do what I can about height but there aren't any tall sticks with an adjustable tilt I have come across, I was thinking of engineering just that but line arrays look so much better and within a few years they should be really affordable too.
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David Morison

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 08:26:10 AM »

Yes, I intend to do what I can about height but there aren't any tall sticks with an adjustable tilt I have come across, I was thinking of engineering just that but line arrays look so much better and within a few years they should be really affordable too.

For smaller speakers you can get by with these, for slightly bigger speakers you would need these to go between your normal speaker stands/poles and the speaker themselves.
That's if you don't decide to sell up all you have in favour of more modern speakers, many of which already have down-tilt as an option in their speaker pole socket already.

HTH,
David.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 11:25:49 AM »

With all due respect, I think your confusing three different things here
Front Fill: To provide limited coverage for the first several rows that are not adequate covered by the left and right stacks, usually on the lip of a raised stage, with a low profile speaker with specific dispersion characteristics.
Balcony Fills: To provide time aligned, and again limited, coverage areas at the back of the venue also specific areas not covered well by the left and right mains.

Other fills are generally part of an installed system and have all of the math done ahead of time.  Delay stacks can help reinforce sound further out, but unless your working stadiums or specifically need the coverage due to physical limitations of the venue, properly deployed mains should cover most of the venue.  Adding speakers for the sake of adding speakers can be much more detrimental than helpful to your sound by creating several different arrival times.

Unless you are working with a very wide venue, a more prudent use of resources might be to look into purchasing better left and right mains that cover your audience better. 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 02:13:16 PM »

With all due respect, I think your confusing three different things here
Front Fill: To provide limited coverage for the first several rows that are not adequate covered by the left and right stacks, usually on the lip of a raised stage, with a low profile speaker with specific dispersion characteristics.
Balcony Fills: To provide time aligned, and again limited, coverage areas at the back of the venue also specific areas not covered well by the left and right mains.

Other fills are generally part of an installed system and have all of the math done ahead of time.  Delay stacks can help reinforce sound further out, but unless your working stadiums or specifically need the coverage due to physical limitations of the venue, properly deployed mains should cover most of the venue.  Adding speakers for the sake of adding speakers can be much more detrimental than helpful to your sound by creating several different arrival times.

Unless you are working with a very wide venue, a more prudent use of resources might be to look into purchasing better left and right mains that cover your audience better.

^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

For Brad:

The main PA should cover as much of the room as possible.  Front fills do just that, fill in the hole in the first couple of rows of the audience (think of theater seating setup or punters against the barricade) that are not in the direct coverage of the mains.

Balcony and under-balcony fills are used to supplement the main PA; the loudspeakers are painstakingly selected to cover only the specific area needing coverage; they are time-aligned to the mains and the levels carefully set so you don't notice them working, unless they don't work. ;)

If you're playing bars, clubs or venues where the audience has a choice about where they sit/stand I'd assert that most of the folks in back are there because it's quieter.  Puting more SPL on them will only annoy them.

If you're doing performances where everyone in the venue is expecting the same experience, system design is not trivial.

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Xiang Cao

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2018, 02:18:24 PM »

RCF HDL6A
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Henry Cohen

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2018, 04:07:36 PM »

. . . most of the folks in back are there because it's quieter.  Puting more SPL on them will only annoy them.

To quote Tim,   ^^^This.  ^^^Right.  ^^^Here.

(Just channeling my inner curmudgeon)
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Steve Garris

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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2018, 04:22:05 PM »

As others have said, if midrange clarity is lacking back at the audience listening point, then adding more speakers isn't going to fix that.

I work at a club that has a nice, dual mono JBL point-source system installed, and a tall stage that people stand in front of. When I have a band that has all IEM's, I take two monitors on the lip and turn them around, just for those center audience people. I use an aux mix with just vocals and keys, and I hi-pass any sub content. I adjust the volume of these depending on how many people are in front of the stage.
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Re: How do you use front fills? Which speakers are best etc..
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2018, 04:22:05 PM »


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