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[Chris Grimshaw]

Hi Stephen,

The pair of 8"s side-by-side would be within a quarter wavelength at just over 400Hz. Running down to 80Hz gives a useful bandwidth to run the second 8", so I still think it's worthwhile. You could run the second 8" even higher and narrow the dispersion a little through the midrange, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - other people on-stage will probably appreciate having less spill from adjacent monitors.

With the size of the stages I'm running at the moment (and there aren't any plans to go bigger), a not-as-good-as-the-RCF 12" coaxial does fine for drummers that want a bit of their kick. It won't flap their T-shirts, but does give a bit of "feel". I'm hoping the new cabinets will improve on that by around 6dB.

That reminds me, I should probably measure the current monitors, too...

Chris

[Steve Ferreira]

We have xW15 and they kick ass.  It's a serious wedge on par with the Clair 12am in terms of acceptance by touring acts.

We own a bunch (around 20) of SRX712m and they're great little monitors (had national acts accept them when biamped) and make for nice speakers on sticks, too.

The hard part is training monitor mixing persons to ask "what is too loud in your mix" rather than "what do you need want more of?"

I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.

[Chris Grimshaw]

I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.

Just curious - the xW15 uses a 15" and horn side-by-side, and it looks like the frequency response changes off-axis. Is that much of a problem in use? Is the crossover steep enough that you don't notice much interference between the two drivers?

TIA,
Chris

[Tim McCulloch]

Just curious - the xW15 uses a 15" and horn side-by-side, and it looks like the frequency response changes off-axis. Is that much of a problem in use? Is the crossover steep enough that you don't notice much interference between the two drivers?

TIA,
Chris

It's 24dB/oct L-R, IIRC.  Don't recall if there is an under-lap or not.

[Sam Costa]

Hi all,

So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.

I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.

For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.


The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.


So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.

Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?

Chris

Chris, personally speaking as a semi professional musician, the newer active 12" stage monitors are the way to go. I too have never owned any 15" stage wedges for ANY of my clients, whether it's a small club to larger outdoor stages, 12" to me are the perfect size and amount of energy on stage.

For the past 10 years, I've been running IEM's and most of my ban, even most of my clients have now switched to those as well, so stage monitors are becoming more and more scarce. (fine with me, less to carry!!)

I do recall working with a client of mine who had always used 15" wedges (always had it on his tech rider)  and now working with them for over a year he loves the sound and smaller footprint of the active 12" ZLX's I bring in and now looking into buying a IEM for himself.

just my $.2

[Stephen Kirby]

I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.

For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of.  The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul.  He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool.  Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his.  Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else.  And most of it was locked down by them.  I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck.  He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage.  No problem at all.

[Scott Holtzman]

For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of.  The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul.  He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool.  Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his.  Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else.  And most of it was locked down by them.  I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck.  He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage.  No problem at all.

QSC HPR 12's  Bass players use Sans Amps and run through the monitors.  Works like a champ no issue.

I have one drummer left who insists I bring along a little 12" powered sub and I put a coax 12" on top of it (the Alto, I wish I could get 4 more of those). 

[Weogo Reed]

Hi Chris,

A model for your dual 8" coax concept:
 https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Tannoy/VX/VX-8-2/p/P0BUM

Note that a small 8" box will likely have a bit wider dispersion than a 12".

Good health,  Weogo

Callan,

I'm going to be designing and building from scratch (as I have done with all my FOH gear), and wanted a target to aim at. It looks like the RCF coaxials are the ones to match or beat.

It'd be relatively easy to slap a 12" coaxial in a box and call it good. I like the form-factor of a pair of 8"s with one of them coaxial, so I'm going to see if it can be done that way.

Chris

[Chris Grimshaw]

Hey Weogo,

Yep, that Tannoy cab is the sort of thing. I'm aiming at more power handling and more output, though.


I understand why a lot of people like coaxial monitors, but the standard MF/HF side-by-side arrangement also seems to work well. At 6' distance, moving 20 degrees off axis means you've gone a little over 2' across the stage, and 40 degrees is 5' across the stage.
EV's spec sheet for the 15" two-way monitor is quite revealing - while the off-axis response does get messy, you're still flat within 10 degrees out, and there's a 3 or 4dB dip when 20 degrees out. At 40 degrees, it's pretty messy but certainly not the end of the world.

Compare it to the polar maps here for 18Sound's top 12" coaxial - http://www.eighteensound.com/Products/Articles/Detail/catid/4065/eid/3416/12ncx750h
And, actually, having the two drivers side-by-side doesn't look too bad. I don't think it's as cut and dried as people often think.

The RCF 12" coaxial can be matched in sensitivity and output by good 10" midbass units - Faital Pro's 10FH520, for example. That's on account of the coaxial having to share it's motor strength across two drivers, and the compromises that happen with the cone when you've got to mount a horn in the middle of it.

The saga continues - a 10" two-way would be another option if it can be made to match the RCFs.

Chris

[Steve Ferreira]

For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of.  The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul.  He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool.  Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his.  Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else.  And most of it was locked down by them.  I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck.  He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage.  No problem at all.

The key to getting the 712m really going is in bi-amp and with a nice amp like an Itech. They pack quite the punch for a small package.

[ProSoundWeb Community]