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Author Topic: Stage monitors - how much is enough?  (Read 11952 times)

Chris Grimshaw

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Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« on: May 11, 2018, 09:27:05 AM »

Hi all,

So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.

I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.

For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.


The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.


So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.

Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?

Chris
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scottstephens

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2018, 09:50:56 AM »

Chris,

   I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.

  We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember.  Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's  Turbosound Somethings  for monitors  and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
  Just my 2 cents.

Scott
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Scott Gaines

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2018, 10:11:28 AM »

Chris,

   I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.

  We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember.  Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's  Turbosound Somethings  for monitors  and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
  Just my 2 cents.

Scott
Turbosound IQ10s get plenty loud for stage monitoring. They simply do not run out of gas.
Not sure I'd put a ton of kick thru it, but you get the point. If I needed kick, I would have full confidence in the IQ12.
The Turbosounds you were using must've been a lower end model.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2018, 10:37:20 AM »

Hi all,

So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.

I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.

For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.


The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.


So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.

Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?

Chris
This is pretty subjective, and I think we would all agree that what's 'necessary' by any objective auditory standard doesn't always jive with what's 'required' to make the talent happy.

Here's a look from two directions: 

1. OSHA's 8-hour exposure limit is 90dBA, with a 5dBA exchange rate, meaning you can be exposed to 95dBA for 4 hours or 100dBA for 2 hours and have the same cumulative exposure.  Based on a two-hour show, any monitor that can produce at least 100dBA should be plenty adequate.

2. The function of a monitor is to give the performer feedback.  For this to work, the monitor must be able to produce more level than the background noise the performer is competing against.  For sake of argument, let's call it 10dB more than background.  I have measured snare and cymbal volume at the drummer's head position at north of 120dBA fast.  Based on this number, a drum wedge would need to be able to produce at least 130dBA fast to compete.

So, the obvious answer is to get a speaker capable of competing with 120+dBA ambient noise but limiting the performer's exposure to 100dBA.  :)

I don't work with bands that are ridiculously loud so YMMV, but I've never had trouble making the talent happy with any reasonable powered speaker.  Arguably, monitor clarity is more important than volume.  Louder mush doesn't fix the issue, while clear-sounding monitors will be functional at a much lower volume.  The JBL SRX812p is a great monitor wedge. 

I've commented on this before, but I have never in my life owned a 15" box.  Ever.  I've had lots of 10"s and 12"s and 18"s, but never a 15".  I don't think I'm missing out.
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Mike Monte

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2018, 10:52:36 AM »

Chris,

   I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.

  We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember.  Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's  Turbosound Somethings  for monitors  and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
  Just my 2 cents.

Scott
I have a small/local sound-for-hire business.
For "lounge level" gigs I, for one, think that many people "over do" monitors most of the time.
I have four (bi-amped) yorkville e152's that I have used as monitors on outdoor gigs.  They sound great but they are a bit big and cumbersome to move around and find places for them in club situations.

Hey, if all you have are 15's, by all means, use what you have..

For the past several years I have been using bose passive 402's as monitors (the older series).  For indoor club / hall band shows they work well.
They are light (17 lbs per cab) and have a transit kit that holds two cabs. 

As a professional musician I can't tolerate loud monitors blaring at me on stage....I bring earplugs to those gigs..(keep a bag of 'em in my sax case).

At the lounge level: loud monitors.......why?

Kind of reminds me of going to McDonalds for a burger...  You can purchase most sandwich meals in three sizes: regular/medium/large...The regular size is fine. 
In the medium/large orders the sandwich is the same size but the fries/fountain drinks get larger & larger......the stuff that has the most "bad stuff" in it gets larger...

How many time have I regretted getting the large......lost count.


 

   
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Steve Crump

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2018, 11:13:50 AM »

Hi all,

 I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.


Chris


Chris,

Just curious, which 8 & 12" coaxial speakers were you using?

Most of what we are using is based on trial and error, and what we could afford at the time of purchase. But, we have had good luck using a 12" on drums, indoors and outdoors. Blues, Country, Southern Rock etc. Not sure how it would work for all genres. The ironic part is that we have been using the EV SX250, which is a 15", across the front and the EV TX1122FM, which is a 12", on drums. On the outdoor shows I did last year, I received some great feedback from the bands using this setup, including the drummers.
Of course, we are talking small crowds, less than 300 and small stages 16' x16' and 16' x 20'.

We have changed out the front SX250s at our venue and went to the QSC E10, which is a 10". The house sound guy has been bragging about the performance of the 10. Tonight I will be at the venue helping with a rocking Blues band and it will be my first experience with the E10s. I will report back. I am also going to try the E10s on an outdoor stage in June and see what happens.

I know the E10 is an inexpensive speaker, but for the money if it works out I won't complain.   

 
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Steve Ferreira

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2018, 11:21:36 AM »

I use JBL SRX 712m's for my events. Nobody has ever complained about their sound quality or how loud they get. The occasional guy wants more and more in his wedge and then things can get carried away. I have also used on bigger stages the EV Xw12 & Xw15 and nobody complains about those also.
It's a matter of choice, opinion and budget.
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2018, 12:11:16 PM »

I recently bought a single Behringer EUROLIVE B205D for my band to play with. We have been using it here and there as one guy's or another's monitor. 

We normally use ELX112Ps and I think we have a tendency to run them hot, because we can, not because we really need the volume which causes too much monitor wash out front.

 I noticed when I do sound for for other bands the same thing happens:  because we can make them loud and clear people sometimes want them louder than necessary or I will set them louder than necessary.  Occasionally folks  will tell me to back off my initial volume but I think I tend to make them too loud when I am doing my initial sound check before the band gets there.

Any way, back to the Behringer. I  had never before used any other "hot spot" style monitor and I must say it works fine for me.  Amazing how you can get  so much volume at the mic but the guy next to you can't even really hear it. I imagine if we all used those our stage wash would be reduced by at least half or more.  Of course it doesn't look cool, so...

« Last Edit: May 11, 2018, 03:45:46 PM by Scott Olewiler »
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2018, 12:15:00 PM »

I'm converting to RCF NX-10SMA and 12SMA from dxr10s.
Very nice looking and sounding box.
Check out the review forum here in PSW.
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Kevin_Tisdall

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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018, 01:45:41 PM »

I also have the RCF NX-12SMA wedges.  I do some work in church halls, smaller clubs and arts centers.   They are more than enough.  I upgraded from DSR112's which were nearly the same acoustically but I find the RCF's smoother sounding, certainly lighter and smaller size.

Even with relatively loud rock bands I have shut down the FOH during sound check and marveled at  the amount of vocals I hear from the monitors, in the house.
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Re: Stage monitors - how much is enough?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2018, 01:45:41 PM »


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