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Author Topic: Kick Drum in Sub  (Read 5090 times)

Caleb Dueck

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2018, 09:30:41 pm »

Great info.  I will try some of this.  I was told by the install company, that this sub was "amazing" and he actually recommended it over a dual 18.  I tried to get the 18, but he kept telling me this 212 is more than enough.  And for bass, so far it is.  We love it.  But I'm beginning to think the 18" or possibly even more subs, as you said, would be better.  Thanks again for your input.
1-2 CSX 218 subs would fix this.  A single 212 can only dream of reproducing a big kick sound.  I've used that 212 sub before; we often use a pair of CSX218 subs in similar/slightly larger rooms and in that setup they work great.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2018, 12:03:42 am »

Couple things.....

I just looked that sub up, while I'm sure it's a nice compact little sub a pair of front loaded direct radiator 12's are not going to cave your chest in with kick drum impact and rock the room like I'm sure your wanting to do, for that matter neither would a single 18 front loaded direct radiator sub.
As far as speaker cone surface area goes two 12 inch speakers are just about the same as a single 18.

You mentioned your hired sound guy could not figure out if your subs were on an aux or not.... it may be time to look for another sound guy.

In my quick read of the specs it did not make mention to this but if it is a bi-wired cabinet as in each speaker has it's own speaker cable line going to the amp and one of those lines has the polarity flipped that would greatly reduce any low frequency output.

Robert Lunceford

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2018, 02:07:26 am »

In my quick read of the specs it did not make mention to this but if it is a bi-wired cabinet as in each speaker has it's own speaker cable line going to the amp and one of those lines has the polarity flipped that would greatly reduce any low frequency output.

The OP wrote that the bass guitar sounds amazing so I doubt there is an issue with polarity.

Once the issue is resolved, since you have a QU mixer, go to the PEQ library and call up the Drum:KK1 preset for your kick drum channel. Turn on the HP filter and set to around 65Hz. This is a good starting point. Adjust the HP filter to find the best setting for your system.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2018, 07:38:33 am »


Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.

But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. Itís like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.


Like I said before your sub is not going to knock people over.

Does your bass guitar use an on stage amp and go to the pa, maybe the combination of the amp and the mains is what give the sense that the bass filling the room.

Your sentence " Itís like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end"

If you can hear the top end the kick/click coming through the sub
there is a problem in the system processor set up.

You need to or get someone to go through the system and make sure it is configured properly, your sub is what it is but at least you'll know the system is doing all it can.

A simple test would be to turn off the main speaker amps only leaving the sub turned on, run some pink noise through the system (your mixer has that and a sine wave generator built in) with that your should only hear a rumbling sound no discernible top end at all. Do the same thing with the sine wave generator, after about 200hz or so you should not hear much if anything coming out of the subs.

In your mixer set up are you assigning the drum channels to sub group, if so you need then to check that the drum channels are not directly assigned to the L+R main outs. If they are there is slight timing difference between the direct routing and the sub group routing that will cause some phase shift issues.



« Last Edit: May 12, 2018, 06:23:49 pm by Mike Caldwell »
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John Daniluk (JD)

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2018, 08:19:22 am »

just out of curiosity does the QU-32 board allow off line programming?  I did a quick look at the overview and did not see it.  If it allows off line programming, he could post the file and everyone could look at it.

jd
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2018, 11:29:30 am »

I use 2 single 18" EVs in a similar size room and don't have too much issue getting enough out of the system to produce the low end I need although another 2 won't be beyond my recommendation if there wasn't a budget restriction, I doubt that a 2x12 would be terrible in that room but depending on where the kick is tuned it could be a problem.

Have you tried just tuning the kick a bit higher and seeing what happens, I remember that helped with a system that was a little under powered in the sub department.

Also we have a DW performer series in our larger venue and that sounds great with a sub kick, I find I need to eq a bit much with a B52 however if I had to drop the sub kick I would go to the Audix D6 which sounds great. An AKG D112 is also another option, I've never been a fan of the B52 but it is the most common mic and most BEs want it over the D6, probably because they know how it should sound.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2018, 12:00:32 pm »

Martin CDD12 mains
Martin CSX 212 sub
60íx80í room
Dynacord amps
QU-32 board
DW Collector series drums
Beta 52 kick drum mic

Our bass guitar sounds really good in the house (a church). Fills the room wonderful.

But our kick drum mic sounds terrible. Itís like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end. The DSP was done in the power amps. I would imagine that a crossover was applied to the system. But why are we not getting enough low end out of the kick? Btw, the kick sounds amazing if you are standing next to it. The whole kit does.

When we stand next to the sub, no matter how much we turn up or how much we eq the kick, we cannot ďfeelĒ it like we should out of that sub.

What am I missing?
What should I investigate?

Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Isaac,
Have you listened to a recording that you know well that has a kick drum sound like you want?
How does it sound on your PA?

Do you know how the system tuning is?
With subs like that in that room there is going to be some compromise between LF extension and output capability.
Is the bass you mention a 4 string or 5 string?
The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass. 

I would listen to something that you know well and see what is different in your PA than in your good quality headphones or home stereo speakers.

Lee
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Isaac South

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2018, 01:07:35 pm »

The OP wrote that the bass guitar sounds amazing so I doubt there is an issue with polarity.

Once the issue is resolved, since you have a QU mixer, go to the PEQ library and call up the Drum:KK1 preset for your kick drum channel. Turn on the HP filter and set to around 65Hz. This is a good starting point. Adjust the HP filter to find the best setting for your system.

I will give that a try.  Thanks for the tip.
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Isaac South

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2018, 01:10:27 pm »

Like I said before your sub is not going to knock people over.

Does your bass guitar use an on stage amp and go to the pa, maybe the combination of the amp and the mains is what give the sense that the bass filling the room.

Your sentence " Itís like we can hear the top end of the kick coming through the sub and not nearly enough low end"

If you can hear the top end the kick/click coming through the sub
there is a problem in the system processor set up.

You need to or get someone to go through the system and make sure it is configured properly, your sub is what it is but at least you'll know the system is doing all it can.

A simple test would be to turn off the main speaker amps only leaving the sub turned on, run some pink noise through the system (your mixer has that and a sine wave generator built in) with that your should only hear a rumbling sound no discernible top end at all. Do the same thing with the sine wave generator, after about 200hz or so you should not hear much if anything coming out of the subs.

In your mixer set up are you assigning the drum channels to sub group, if so you need then that the drum channels are not directly assigned to the L+R main outs. If they are there is slight timing difference between the direct routing and the sub group routing that will cause some phase shift issues.

We do not have anything (to my knowledge) assigned to a sub group.

The bass player has an amp on stage (GK).  He has the master turned up to only 1.  So it's basically not even there.

I may give the pink noise a try.  Although, that's a bit over my head to be honest.

I'd say there's a small timing difference.  We ended up moving our mains back a few feet after the install because the people in the alter area could hear nothing.  Yes, I know we should have done front fills.  I am disappointed in our install company.  Long story.  That's another topic.  But for the timing difference, I wouldn't know how to fix the delay.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 01:14:06 pm by Isaac South »
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Isaac South

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Re: Kick Drum in Sub
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2018, 01:13:10 pm »

Isaac,
Have you listened to a recording that you know well that has a kick drum sound like you want?
How does it sound on your PA?

Do you know how the system tuning is?
With subs like that in that room there is going to be some compromise between LF extension and output capability.
Is the bass you mention a 4 string or 5 string?
The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass. 

I would listen to something that you know well and see what is different in your PA than in your good quality headphones or home stereo speakers.

Lee

I've listened to plenty of tracks through the system. But I haven't really paid attention to the kick.  I'll do that. 

The bass is a 5-string.  It sounds really really good.  Fills the whole room.

"The factory recommended starting point for tuning of the CSX212 is a 55Hz, 6dB boost, Q of 1 combined with a 20Hz, 24dB/Oct high-pass.  "  Do you mean that's what it should be in the DSP of the poweramp?  Is that something I should check, or do you recommend I leave that alone?
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