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Author Topic: Gibson... uh oh...  (Read 4065 times)

Bob Faulkner

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Ned Ward

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 04:13:11 PM »

Given the nut behind the wheel (Henry J.) was a matter of when, not if. Henry had fired the head of the custom shop, sales and marketing and loaded up on debt to buy consumer electronics no one else wanted.

Here's hoping that the new Gibson emerges out of bankruptcy without him. It's the only way the company doesn't fall apart further.
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John L Nobile

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 04:15:47 PM »

This makes me sad and I play keys. Condolences to all the guitar players here. I hope that whoever buys the company keeps their tradition.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2018, 04:43:45 PM »

The brand will survive, Henry who knows..?

With that much debt the debtors will be calling the shots in bankruptcy.

JR
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 06:30:18 PM »

He gets a position as "transition consultant" for a couple mil over the next year.

Why would anyone trying to right the ship have any interest in his ideas?  One doesn't solve problems with the same thinking that caused them.

Maybe Heritage will buy out the name.  ;)
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2018, 06:31:50 PM »

...and loaded up on debt to buy consumer electronics no one else wanted.

That one had me scratching my head at the Consumer Electronics Show a few years back  ::) .

Dave
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2018, 09:42:23 PM »

Being a Gibson user, owner, and lover of all things Gibson guitar since the 50's has given me a sort of insight into the successes and failures associated with Gibson, then Gibson brands.

The 50's and 60's were the guitar decades. Fender and Gibson ruled supreme and no other manufacturers were even close. Everyone wanted to be the next guitar player of fame, to belong to the best band on the planet, and to own a Gibson or Fender guitar. There were no equals. Kay, Sears Silvertone, Danelctro, etc. were all available for 1/10th the cost, but the fact remained. If you were a serious player it was Fender or Gibson.

In the early 70's the garage band influence became less appealing, Japan and Korea were shipping some decent guitars to the USA, and younger players were given a selection of playable guitars never before seen. And in the 70's, with the onset of all things distortion, volume became more important than tone.

About the same time Gibson sold to Norlin marking the era of less than acceptable quality in a high number of manufactures pieces, even into entire series. The ES series being one of the most notable. This quality good enough attitude further pushed Gibson users and followers, myself included, to the point where other brands were considered acceptable where they once were not. I personally did not purchase a new Gibson between 1970 and 1986.

Henry J. and his clan purchased Gibson at a point where Gibson was just about done as a company. They resurrected the brand, insisted on quality, changed many of their manufacturing steps, and once again became the #1 brand of quality guitars around the world. They introduced the custom shop and historic divisions, and again the bar was raised. All of my Gibson's were either produced before 1972 or by the custom shop after 1989. They are all beautiful pieces of playable perfection.

In the past 20 years or so Gibson diversified and became Gibson brands. Those brands include Onkyo, Neat, Cerwin Vega, Cakewalk, Stanton, KRK, Cakewalk, and entire Phillips consumer lines.

It is, as has been stated in many articles now and in the past, the consumer brands and the money leveraged against those brands that have brought about the $500,000 deficit that Gibson is claiming chapter 11 against. $135 million of which comes from the money losing acquisition of the Phillips brand consumer products division purchased in 2014. To that end Gibson will restructure and the debt will be forgiven and the lenders will/have taken control of the company.

I would expect that in the end Gibson and Epiphone will be what remains, and all other facets of the company will be gone along with Henry J.. It's another Norlin era, with the exception quality remains high in Memphis, Nashville, and Boseman.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2018, 09:50:52 PM »

He gets a position as "transition consultant" for a couple mil over the next year.

Why would anyone trying to right the ship have any interest in his ideas?  One doesn't solve problems with the same thinking that caused them.

Maybe Heritage will buy out the name.  ;)

Heritage thought they had a chance at producing a Gibson equal in the past. Being in the old Kalamazoo building doesn't equal Gibson by any stretch of the imagination. Heritage has already called it quits once and has zero or less chance of making an equal to a Gibson, let alone owning the company. Gibson guitar is operating at a profit, and other than Gibson musical instruments they also own the Epiphone, Kramer, Steinberger, Dobro, and Baldwin brands. All profitable brands. You might also note that Fender is also operating at a loss.
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Luke Geis

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018, 12:00:45 AM »

As far as I understand and comprehend it, Henry is walking out with a shit eating grin. He gets a severance package and a " contract " that will keep him set up pretty nicely for what many of us will take a lifetime to make. So much for punishing a bad business man..... I am one who does not see Gibson as the epitome of a quality brand, but more of a " you pay for the name " type of brand. Yes they make damn good instruments, but they also come at a price that you better not be getting a plywood guitar.

The concept of a luxury brand never set well with me. It is like saying the Gibson is the Rolls Royce of guitars. They aren't at all. They make good guitars and charge top dollar for them, that's fine, I will pay $2.4k for a standard when it actually becomes a standard. It was destined for failure. Everyday people don't buy Gibson products made by Onkyo, or Phillips. If you ask 100 people if they know who Gibson is, the only ones who will know will be musicians and perhaps a couple that are friends with one. They forgot about their roots. They make quality guitars, not computer monitors......

The good thing is this though. The Gibson company will be saved and will be resurrected. They will get back on track and they will continue making Gibson guitars. With any luck they will actually forget about trying to be a luxury brand and simply do what they get paid for, which is to make really good guitars that maintain value and get passed on for generations. I was born in an era in which I missed the chance to get a real Gibson and by the time I was interested in one, they were more expensive than the actual quality you were getting " paying for the name ". I doubt there will be many guitars from the 80's, 90's and even 2000's that will demand the figures that any 59' models have and do.

I am slowly starting to acquire a vintage selection of guitars. I have 3 at this point that are all older than me ( 39 presently ). While neither is a highly valuable model of anything, they are good guitars and they will outlast me. Many luthiers these days are making guitars that make any standard production Gibson seems like a Chinese knock off. The only thing that brings value to the Gibson guitar brand right now is simply that name. Lest they forget whence they came. There is a luthier that makes a 59 Les Paul replica that sells for more than $30,000 and it may very well be worth that; if he can do it, others can too. I would love to get a brand new Gibson Les Paul, I just want it to be built in such a way that I know it will be worth that expense 50 years from now. It is not likely that I will be able to get a real 59 Les Paul any time soon..... It sure would be nice that a 2020 model is worth 100X its price 50 years from now.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2018, 01:53:03 AM »

Heritage thought they had a chance at producing a Gibson equal in the past. Being in the old Kalamazoo building doesn't equal Gibson by any stretch of the imagination. Heritage has already called it quits once and has zero or less chance of making an equal to a Gibson, let alone owning the company. Gibson guitar is operating at a profit, and other than Gibson musical instruments they also own the Epiphone, Kramer, Steinberger, Dobro, and Baldwin brands. All profitable brands. You might also note that Fender is also operating at a loss.
Every Heritage I've played has been consistently good.  One of the few guitars I would buy sight unseen, or un-played.  Gibson's on the other hand are all over the map.  Most folks I know who've bought one recently have ended up taking it to a luthier to get things straightened out. 
I love my '85 335 but it took me a couple years to find it.  So much gack to wade though to find a good one.
Besides investing in slim margin consumer electronics, Henry presided over a proliferation of models almost as bad as Fender.  I can never figure out which one is supposed to be "exactly" like a vintage one.  They keep coming up with models where they get this or that aspect "exactly" like a vintage model, but then 6 months later come out with another vintage reissue with some other aspect "exactly like" the old ones.
It's a pretty open secret that folks like Page don't play actual Gibsons.  They have copies made by specialist luthiers and Gibson looks the other way since even their "custom shop" can't make the big name happy.
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2018, 09:24:04 AM »

As far as I understand and comprehend it, Henry is walking out with a shit eating grin. He gets a severance package and a " contract " that will keep him set up pretty nicely for what many of us will take a lifetime to make. So much for punishing a bad business man.....

To quote the sages, Tyler and Perry: "It's the same old story, same old song and dance, my friend".

This scene has been played out all over corporate America.  I observed a CEO who "brilliantly" led a company from nearly $1B annual revenue down to barely $100M - and get richly rewarded for the disaster.

My only question will be; Behringer or Samsung? (as future owners of the Gibson brand)

Dave
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Bradford "BJ" James

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2018, 10:02:56 AM »

Can’t say that I feel sorry for the stupid idiots.
Anyone familiar with the Canadian company Garrison Guitars? Gibson fucked us over good on that one.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2018, 10:08:12 AM »

To quote the sages, Tyler and Perry: "It's the same old story, same old song and dance, my friend".

This scene has been played out all over corporate America.  I observed a CEO who "brilliantly" led a company from nearly $1B annual revenue down to barely $100M - and get richly rewarded for the disaster.

My only question will be; Behringer or Samsung? (as future owners of the Gibson brand)

Dave

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Luke Geis

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2018, 01:14:41 AM »

Something can said about cheap guitars these days. I own several bottom of the heap models and the two standouts that I have play better than anything high dollar I have ever picked up. I have played many, many Gibson Les Paul's ( among other models ) from varying generations. I am pretty sure I even got to play a 60's model at one point. The long and short of it is that I have never picked up a Gibson guitar that felt, played and sounded so good that I had to have it. LOVE the way they look, but it better play for me at the prices they demand. One of my vintage guitars is a Cameo Deluxe. This is an original " law suite guitar " made in either 68 or 69 as best as I can tell and it has some very unique attributes. It is made of plywood, looks like an Gibson SG and is a bolt on neck. The neck is worth its weight in gold! It has a volute, edge binding and a 16" radius with a zero fret ( the nut is only there to guide the strings ). The neck is straight as an arrow and it plays with about 1mm of action like a dream. Sounds unique and good at that. How can you beat a guitar that plays that good with those features that even today only demands about what it cost when it was new. My Ovation Preacher doesn't play as well as the Cameo does and it can pull roughly 7X as much money. The biggest ball buster of them all is a 90's model Squire II that I own. This is a plywood model that was as low as it got for fender in this era. It has the best neck I have ever laid hands upon. You put your finder down and it will play the note for you. It sounds amazing and plays even better. This is a $200 guitar that I would put up against anything. Truly a special piece. I have a Mexican made Strat that can't compete in playablitly and sound with even the same components.

Interestingly enough, the last couple guitars I have built have shown to be of better play and sound than many of the high dollar Gibson's and others I have picked up. The only other guitar I have picked up that gave me the " I want and must have this " feeling is a PRS Custom 22 that a neighbor of mine has. He paid really good money to have it set up, and it was set up well. It sounded amazing and played perfectly. Not every guitar  can be made to play perfectly for someone who has been playing for 27+ years and is no slouch at it. I have played 1,000's of guitars in my lifetime and There have only been a very select few that inspire me, sing to me and make me feel like I need this. There has not been a Gibson yet that has done that. PRS is on the top of my interest list right now as that is one of the only high dollar models that has given me that feeling. Ibanez, ESP, some Fenders and even a Daisy Rock guitar regularly feel just right to me. I will pay $5k for a hand made Les Paul copy that plays like I expect it to. I would just rather a real " standard " model does first.
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David Allred

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2018, 09:42:20 AM »

My brother-in-law (guitar player and long time musical instrument store salesman) said he heard a rumor that Joe Bonamassa is considering buying.  Anyone heard this?
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2018, 09:56:37 AM »

My brother-in-law (guitar player and long time musical instrument store salesman) said he heard a rumor that Joe Bonamassa is considering buying.  Anyone heard this?
Reportedly KKR is the largest creditor and will take over as debtor in possession. Is that Joe's day job?  ;D

JR
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2018, 01:27:37 PM »

This thread is a clone of every other thread on the web. I.E. Gibson's cost too much, Gibson's are junk, no quality control, yada yada yada. same shit different day. Fact is that the majority of the people who shit on Gibson, maybe 99%, are people who don't own or can't afford one.

I'll buy into some quality issues from time to time just like any other manufacturer, but I won't buy into " my plywood guitar plays better and sounds better than any Gibson on the planet", etc.. It's all bullshit, and I don't really care who's spewing it. You get what you pay for.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2018, 02:31:31 PM »

My brother-in-law (guitar player and long time musical instrument store salesman) said he heard a rumor that Joe Bonamassa is considering buying.  Anyone heard this?
There is a tweet out in circulation saying the Joe is looking at putting together a group to take over the debt.  This was reportedly within hours of the Chapter 11 announcement and probably more emotional than thought out.  Haven't seen any more about it.
There's some serious business finagling that needs to be done to separate the MI group from the rest of the debt.  The Philips consumer electronics name has some value but probably not equal to the debt, so there needs to be a profitable write off in it for someone who can then make use of it.  The IP on several Gibson designs and trademarks were also mortgaged and need to be repurchased by the MI group for the brand name to have any real value to an investor.
I own one Nashville post Norlin Gibson and have owned other Kalamazoo Gibsons.  I chose them because they were good instruments.  But my experience finding them is that the name or vintage is irrelevant.  People are forever asking me what year my 335 is.  I tell them that it doesn't make any difference, you just have to find a good one.  I bought and sold 3 and played countless others to find this one.  People who buy them sight unseen (un-played) on the web slay me.
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Dave Pluke

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2018, 03:03:05 PM »

Fact is that the majority of the people who shit on Gibson, maybe 99%, are people who don't own or can't afford one.

I hear ya, Bob.  Wouldn't call myself a Gibson basher, but I'm not a (new) Gibson buyer, either.  Not since their prices skyrocketed beyond the point of being defensible.

I've got a couple pre-Norlin and a few post-Norlin era Gibsons and like them all.  One of the few guitars I ever purchased NEW was a 20th Anniversary Les Paul Custom (74-ish).  It served me well, but I wound up trading it off a few years ago for a '56 Historic LP.

Back in the 90's, I pursued an IT job at Gibson (they were just opening the Memphis facility).  The person interviewing me cautioned me about Henry's penchant for changing direction on a moment's notice.  The only thing that surprises me about the insolvency is that it took so long to come to a head.

Dave


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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2018, 04:27:57 PM »

An old peavey days friend of mine (Jim DeCola) is now master luthier (whatever that means :-) ) at Gibson in Nashville.

I haven't asked him for the inside poop because I don't really care.

JR 
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Ned Ward

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2018, 04:32:45 PM »

I don't think it was a quality issue - it was Henry adding features no one wanted as the ONLY features, not options:
- zero fret
- electronic tuning

Henry did save the company in the 80's, and for that we should be grateful. It's just that after that he went on a buying binge that sapped away working capital from the main part of the company. Buying companies to only shutter them (Opcode, Oberheim, many more) didn't help.

Finally, buying the parts of electronics companies folks didn't want to dream of being a consumer electronics company instead of a kickass music company killed them. Or I should say mounting piles of debt. But Henry thought he was smarter than everyone else and saw value in TEAC and other acquisitions no one else did. But when you end up "winning" these, you're either the smartest guy in the room, or the only one who realized to run away very quickly.

So guitar quality is way down on the list of reasons why Gibson went under.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2018, 04:46:30 PM »

I wouldn't say they're under, but you're right Ned. All those fucking companies they purchased hoping to "revive" them was a joke. Gibson and Epiphone guitars are now paying for this mistake to the point where Henry J. will soon be out of a job. This IDENTICAL to the mistakes made by Norlin. At least it hasn't crept into the quality or creative shortcuts in the manufacturing process....yet. There are some very, very nice custom made guitars out there as an option to the Gibson custom shop, but at what price?? I'll pay custom shop prices for my Gibsons knowing I'll get more than the real deal. No problem at all.
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Re: Gibson... uh oh...
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2018, 04:46:30 PM »


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