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Author Topic: New Yamaha DZR range!  (Read 88262 times)

Richard Penrose

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2018, 04:26:50 PM »

I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.

I must admit Corey I have considered this too. My DSR's cannot reproduce lows like some other 12's can and definitely nowhere close to some 15's. I don't want them to!!!
They do what they are supposed to do unlike anything else in their price range. Clear pronounced but warm mid range and highs with acceptable lows depending on the application.  I always use mine with subs so I have never required anything under 100hz anyway. Surely this important feature has to become compromised to achieve a deeper response.

These are very good points. I have tried some speakers by various manufacturers that claim their 10” speakers go down to 50hz @ +/-3dB (which on paper should be deeper than the DXR15’s at 49hz @ -10dB) but in real world useage there was a lot of port turbulence and by the time I’d rolled off the lows they had pretty much the same depth of bass as any other 10” speaker I’d tried within the same price range.

I have to admit I’m a little sceptical about the performance of the bass response of DZR12’s. However, Yamaha has claimed they easily go deeper and louder than the DXR15’s whilst being a step up in audio quality and clarity so they’ll be worth an audition based on my excellent experience of the DXR15’s.

I’m hoping to get a pair here at some point to compare to my DXR15’s. Ideally I’d like to have both the DZR12’s and DXR15’s connected to separate mix outs from my A&H QU-PAC and fully mic up a band and be able to switch between the speakers to get a better idea of how they sound.

Proof will be in the listening!

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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2018, 05:38:50 PM »

FWIW, I expect the DZR will manage the stated low-frequency extension, at low volumes.

Having conducted some pretty thorough testing on a similar speaker, I expect there'll be some dynamic EQ that cuts in quite early that'll take away quite a lot of that LF extension. The better drive units will mean there's more headroom until they need to apply cuts to keep cone excursion in-check, but a 12" cone can only do so much.

Interested to see how this plays out.

Chris
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Al Poulin

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2018, 06:44:25 PM »

Error - sorry
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Al Poulin

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2018, 06:45:18 PM »

FWIW, I expect the DZR will manage the stated low-frequency extension, at low volumes.

Having conducted some pretty thorough testing on a similar speaker, I expect there'll be some dynamic EQ that cuts in quite early that'll take away quite a lot of that LF extension. The better drive units will mean there's more headroom until they need to apply cuts to keep cone excursion in-check, but a 12" cone can only do so much.

Interested to see how this plays out.

Chris




Yorkville has been doing this for quite some time starting with the original NX55P speaker that went down to 45hz -/+3DB. It works well at low levels (kind of like the loudness switch on older receviers), but some sweeping filters gradually step in to reduce deeper response and prevent over-excursion. Most of Yorkville's modern offerings work like this including the new Elites, but the Elites and Parasource perform better at higher levels because of the multi band limiting. The newer version 2 of the NX55Ps also have improved processing that keeps things sounding better (more transparent) when the woofer limiting takes effect. In the case of the NX55P however, the speaker quickly sounds bad once into woofer limiting as only the compression driver gets louder - leaving you with a much different (and worse) sound than what you started with. My current DXR15s start off with much less bass than NX55P, PS12P and EF-12P, but the DXRs remain consistent in MAINTAINING the balanced sound they started with, and up to surprising levels... I have no doubt the DZR series will be impressive if you take into account what they've been able to achieve with the DXR line, that uses pretty average transducers BUT manages to get the absolute most out of them with top notch processing.

Al 




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Scott Bolt

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2018, 09:33:02 PM »

I'm disappointed that they're trying to make a 12" box produce "deep bass" like everyone else. The focus on reproducing 80+Hz with the DSR12 is what makes it stand out above the crowd. The DZR sounds like a step back toward joining the crowd and gaming the specs. I have my doubts that it'll sound as good as the DSR for this reason. I'm not saying it can't be done but there seems to be an inverse relationship between sound quality/output and bass extension in smaller boxes. I look forward to in-the-wild reviews.
Good point Corey.

Perhaps Ivan could chime in on the design trade-offs needed in order to achieve lower frequencies in a smaller box?

My own engineering "spidey sense" tells me that you never get something for nothing.  The DSR112 has a very nice sound and output, but it doesn't even pretend to handle any LF below 70Hz.  Perhaps as suggested, this is why it handles everything else so well?

On the flip side they have likely put some serious processing DSP into the new speakers.  The DSR FIR filter was already quite good, I expect that the DZR will have improvements.  I guess it is not beyond belief that Yamaha could make a 12" speaker with the characteristics listed in their specs.

Question.....

Nearly all speakers today have a frequency response graph they publish.  What SPL are they done at?

The reason I ask is that it makes all the difference in the world.  Sure, you can make a little noise at 40Hz with a 12" speaker and at a lower volume show a fairly flat response curve, but turn up the volume to a live venue level and I wonder what the frequency response curve looks like then?  Certainly not the same as it was at lower levels.

FYIW, I believe that this is how you can get a 10" speaker that looks like it has the frequency response of a 15" speaker.  Pretty misleading really.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2018, 10:14:58 PM »


Question.....

Nearly all speakers today have a frequency response graph they publish.  What SPL are they done at?


The level is on the other axis of the graph

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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2018, 03:56:32 AM »

Good point Corey.

Perhaps Ivan could chime in on the design trade-offs needed in order to achieve lower frequencies in a smaller box?

My own engineering "spidey sense" tells me that you never get something for nothing.  The DSR112 has a very nice sound and output, but it doesn't even pretend to handle any LF below 70Hz.  Perhaps as suggested, this is why it handles everything else so well?


I'm not Ivan, but here's the quick run-down.

As you go lower in frequency, you need to move increasing amounts of air to maintain SPL. That's why a 3" HF unit can keep up with a few 18" subs. It works out as 4x the volume of air moved per octave down you go.

For a given cone size, moving more air means more cone movement, which is fine until you start exceeding the amount of linear cone movement available (generally known as Xmax - exact definitions vary, but it's accepted that things will start sounding bad past Xmax). Generally, "better" drivers will have more Xmax than "cheaper" drivers, though there are a lot of factors at play.

The DSR112's limited low-frequency extension means you don't need to use much cone excursion to get really loud in the 70Hz+ range. As a result, you don't necessarily need a fantastic driver to do that job.

From what I can tell, the DZR range uses better drivers than the DSR range, but they're also making some serious demands of those drivers - a 12" box rated for use down to 39Hz..?
Hope they've got around 4x the Xmax of the DSR drivers if they want to keep up in output.


From what I can tell, the DSR drivers have 3" coils and look to be closely related to the Eminence Kappalite range. Even being conservative with the estimate, you might say the DSR units have 4mm of one-way linear cone travel. Eminence's numbers show 6.2mm.

Here's one of the best midbass units in the world: https://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/product-detail/mb12n405/292433
4" voice coil, lots of power handling, very efficient, etc etc.
Xmax is 7mm.

I believe this might technically be a subwoofer driver: http://www.faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=201050120
But you could use it for midbass duties. 12.45mm Xmax.

I could carry on, but there's no PA 12" driver with 16mm of one-way linear cone travel.
As a result, I expect the DSR range will get louder before needing to engage the limiters, but the DZR range will get close and have more LF extension if the drivers are a good step up from the DSR's.

You can help that by using clever multi-band dynamic EQ that cuts down the areas where cone excursion is highest (I'm certain all the Yamaha active speakers do this), but now you've got a cabinet that's changing it's own frequency response for the sake of a couple more dB of output, and that's not really for me.

Chris
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Scott Bolt

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2018, 07:42:59 AM »

The level is on the other axis of the graph

A frequency response curve is defined by "amplitude vs frequency".

There are two standards used.  The first one is normalized at 0.

In this version my understanding is that DB is a measure of attenuation or amplification.  0db means that the speaker response is linear at that frequency.  10db would mean that the output frequency is amplified by 10db at that point.  With this graph, you really don't know how loud the output was when the measurement was taken.

It is also possible for the graph to show an absolute reading of output vs frequency.  In the case of the PRX812 it appears they did the test at around 100db SPL on average.  I am not sure about how the SPL was measured though (full space, half space, 1 m, 10 m, etc, etc).

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Patrick Cognitore

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #88 on: May 30, 2018, 08:28:02 AM »

Anyone heard of a USA release date for the DZR series?
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Jeremy Young

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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM »

I'm a little late to the Dante part of the conversation, but Yamaha mixers are already using Dante as their main digital snake protocol, whereas many other manufacturers are still using proprietary protocols.  Given this level of adoption by Yamaha, it makes perfect sense (to me) that Dante would be featured on these products (they probably got a deal licensing for that many products) even if the biggest adoption of Dante seems to be the touring/install/AV segments of our industry.  Many of those aforementioned protocols are point-to-point only, unlike Dante that can use off-the-shelf networking switches.

Not that Tim missed anything in his Dante overview on reply # 27, but to build on that: small Dante systems don't *require*  switches, and the laptop is only *required* for initial setup (to route paths on the Dante network). 

Now that Dante is shipping their AVIO adapters (which require POE so easiest done through a POE switch anyway), it's getting pretty easy to connect a system and in the case of Dante-connected powered speakers with integral DSP, it reduces the number of conversions (analog to digital) in the signal path.  Once configured via laptop, the connections can be made anywhere on the network (there are no dedicated ins or outs, so whether you're connecting a laptop to a switch at FOH or an amplifier to a switch at the stage, the pre-programmed routing works every time). 


For example, instead of XLR connectors for signal that require specific dedicated outputs (from your mixer or stagebox) run to specific monitors (so for eight mixes you'd need eight separate XLR cables), you can daisy chain Dante signals box-to-box in whatever order you want.  Mix 1 will always send data to wedge 1, if that's how you've configured it.  Somewhere like a school that may already have networks installed throughout a multi-use room, one could hypothetically connect their Dante-enabled mixer at FOH position to a network socket in the wall near it, and connect their Dante-enabled-stagebox to a network socket in the wall near it.  Similarly Dante enabled DI boxes or USB converters allow you to connect aux devices/laptops anywhere on the network, saving a lot of extra cable runs and subsequent securing of those cable runs. 


I'm thinking about trying out one of the new Dante AVIO to AES adapters to link my A&H iLive (48khz dante out) to my EV DC-one processor (48khz AES in).  This would allow digital signal flow all the way from the A&H pre-amp to the DC-one outputs.  Time will tell whether I hear a difference but it's an interesting concept.  I'm already using Dante to connect signals between my two iLive systems and loving it.  64 channels of bi-directional audio over a cable the thickness of a pencil?  OK!!!  Built-in redundancy with only one more pencil-thick cable?  Take my money already (wait, they already did). 
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Re: New Yamaha DZR range!
« Reply #89 on: May 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM »


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