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Author Topic: Sanyo projector issue  (Read 2971 times)

Rob Spence

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Sanyo projector issue
« on: March 25, 2018, 03:32:55 pm »

I have a problem with my Sanyo PLC-ZTC50L projector.

I am not getting white. Got green tinge where it should be white. Signal seems good. HDMI to DVI adapter at the projector. Signal is 1080i.

I have a table top tv out of a splitter and it shows correct colors.

A few weeks ago I had this issue while trying to test out some other gear. Then it went away and I had good video.

Last week I was checking out my HD Base-t and it worked fine.

Today doing a final check before packing it all up and the green is back.

Suggestions?

Assuming it needs repair, suggestions on repair folk in the Boston area?

Thanks


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Philip Roberts

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2018, 04:22:36 pm »

A few things that you probably have already  checked.

- Does the color tint happen on all inputs?

- Does the color tint happen with white areas of the projector menus?

- Have you reset all color adjustments in the projector?
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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2018, 04:28:36 pm »

I have a problem with my Sanyo PLC-ZTC50L projector.

I am not getting white. Got green tinge where it should be white. Signal seems good. HDMI to DVI adapter at the projector. Signal is 1080i.

I have a table top tv out of a splitter and it shows correct colors.

A few weeks ago I had this issue while trying to test out some other gear. Then it went away and I had good video.

Last week I was checking out my HD Base-t and it worked fine.

Today doing a final check before packing it all up and the green is back.

Suggestions?

Assuming it needs repair, suggestions on repair folk in the Boston area?

Thanks


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So, it looks like the order of my devices is causing this?

I have 3 devices in series before the projector.
HD base-t receiver, an HDMI splitter, and an audio extractor.

 HD base-t receiver to audio extractor to splitter to projector gets green

HD base-t receiver to splitter to audio extractor to projector gets white

On a whim, on the configuration that got green, I replaced the cable to the projector with an SDI link (hdmi to sdi, coax, sdi to hdmi) and got white again. I was surprised it worked at all. Perhaps my local tv satisfied the HDCP handshake?

Man, so much to learn.



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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2018, 01:18:32 am »

So, it looks like the order of my devices is causing this?

I have 3 devices in series before the projector.
HD base-t receiver, an HDMI splitter, and an audio extractor.

 HD base-t receiver to audio extractor to splitter to projector gets green

HD base-t receiver to splitter to audio extractor to projector gets white

On a whim, on the configuration that got green, I replaced the cable to the projector with an SDI link (hdmi to sdi, coax, sdi to hdmi) and got white again. I was surprised it worked at all. Perhaps my local tv satisfied the HDCP handshake?

Man, so much to learn.



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It could be that there was a color space issue - if you are dealing with SDI signal at any point in the chain, youíll want to use YUV instead of RGB.

I have also encountered some finicky devices when HDBaseT was involved; random HDCP static/snow from lost handshakes, etc.

I basically gave up on HDBaseT (at least with Atlona products); maybe if I tried something from Extron or AJA...
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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2018, 12:13:46 pm »

It could be that there was a color space issue - if you are dealing with SDI signal at any point in the chain, youíll want to use YUV instead of RGB.

I have also encountered some finicky devices when HDBaseT was involved; random HDCP static/snow from lost handshakes, etc.

I basically gave up on HDBaseT (at least with Atlona products); maybe if I tried something from Extron or AJA...

I am all HDMI as SDI doesnít pass the HDCP handshake.

If this were analog I might suspect signal strength but I would think that with digital, it should either work or not.



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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2018, 04:12:48 pm »

I am all HDMI as SDI doesnít pass the HDCP handshake.

If this were analog I might suspect signal strength but I would think that with digital, it should either work or not.



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Gotcha.

It seems like there may be an EDID miscommunication between devices about capabilities, resulting in the green color issue.

Analog was easier to deal with, IMO - still a pain, but at least it gave you something to work with.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2018, 04:54:33 pm »

So that brings up a question I have been wondering about.
If I replace my A/B switch with something like a Roland V-1HD, how will EDID and HDCP work?
I am guessing that the input sources will think they are connected to a display all the time without regard for which input is actually being sent to the output?

This is so confusing.



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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2018, 09:27:06 pm »

So that brings up a question I have been wondering about.
If I replace my A/B switch with something like a Roland V-1HD, how will EDID and HDCP work?
I am guessing that the input sources will think they are connected to a display all the time without regard for which input is actually being sent to the output?

This is so confusing.



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The switcher supports preview.  I don't know if that Roland is a scaler too.  The bottom line is yes the input is always processing frames as you can pull it up on the cue monitor too. 

With a switcher you should never see a projector Loss of Signal.  Most have memory so you can download images for transition and keying (like logo in bottom of screen).  My little Blackmagic does all of this but is not a scaler so I have to make sure all the inputs are the same resolution or use a scaler in between.

If you are in the market for a switcher BM has a new version of the Studio SD with a control surface built in.  It's cool but I have gotten by with a touch screen or even iPad control (you always have the front panel as backup, just not as tactile for wipes and fades).

I do have a question Rob.  Are you playing back copy protected content?  If not the HDCP is moot.  I use PC's and the BM playback deck and all SD distribution to our projectors.  The Runco's have SD interfaces the small 4k Proxima I use the micro converters.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2018, 11:03:58 pm »

The switcher supports preview.  I don't know if that Roland is a scaler too.  The bottom line is yes the input is always processing frames as you can pull it up on the cue monitor too. 

With a switcher you should never see a projector Loss of Signal.  Most have memory so you can download images for transition and keying (like logo in bottom of screen).  My little Blackmagic does all of this but is not a scaler so I have to make sure all the inputs are the same resolution or use a scaler in between.

If you are in the market for a switcher BM has a new version of the Studio SD with a control surface built in.  It's cool but I have gotten by with a touch screen or even iPad control (you always have the front panel as backup, just not as tactile for wipes and fades).

I do have a question Rob.  Are you playing back copy protected content?  If not the HDCP is moot.  I use PC's and the BM playback deck and all SD distribution to our projectors.  The Runco's have SD interfaces the small 4k Proxima I use the micro converters.

Thanks Scott

To be specific, I am projecting a sports event (5 minutes) from a satellite receiver to a private group as part of a gathering. I have no way to know in advance about HDCP so I must assume it is required. The rest of the 5 hours is all PowerPoint or videos.

I should look at the BM switcher.



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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2018, 11:17:25 pm »

The switcher supports preview.  I don't know if that Roland is a scaler too.  The bottom line is yes the input is always processing frames as you can pull it up on the cue monitor too. 

With a switcher you should never see a projector Loss of Signal.  Most have memory so you can download images for transition and keying (like logo in bottom of screen).  My little Blackmagic does all of this but is not a scaler so I have to make sure all the inputs are the same resolution or use a scaler in between.

If you are in the market for a switcher BM has a new version of the Studio SD with a control surface built in.  It's cool but I have gotten by with a touch screen or even iPad control (you always have the front panel as backup, just not as tactile for wipes and fades).

I do have a question Rob.  Are you playing back copy protected content?  If not the HDCP is moot.  I use PC's and the BM playback deck and all SD distribution to our projectors.  The Runco's have SD interfaces the small 4k Proxima I use the micro converters.

Scott, what is the actual BM model. I couldnít find it.



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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 12:15:21 am »

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2018, 02:29:49 am »

I have the ATEM Studio HD

This is the model I wish they made when I bought mine

I also have the playback deck

That looks super.
Priced similar to the Roland but has both HDMI and SDI inputs. One concern is only SDI output though I have SDI to HDMI converters.

I like the software control too.



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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2018, 01:16:48 pm »

That looks super.
Priced similar to the Roland but has both HDMI and SDI inputs. One concern is only SDI output though I have SDI to HDMI converters.

I like the software control too.



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I've used all of these BMD products and they all work very well.  For most simpler things, the 2/3 rack TV Studio HD has suited me fine.

BMD has VERY good remote control capability of all of their stuff including a variety of third party solutions.  That little HyperDeck MINI is also controllable directly from the same software as the switcher and i think will even do a playback directly upon switching to it's input on the TV Studio switcher.  I know it will with the bigger boy switcher models [as this is something we do a lot at work]

The HyperMini will also output Alpha Keyed playback for using it as a "bug" for branding or for those cool looking semi-tranparent lower thirds or wipes that all the big boys use.  Pretty amazing little box for the price....
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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2018, 02:01:01 pm »

I've used all of these BMD products and they all work very well.  For most simpler things, the 2/3 rack TV Studio HD has suited me fine.

BMD has VERY good remote control capability of all of their stuff including a variety of third party solutions.  That little HyperDeck MINI is also controllable directly from the same software as the switcher and i think will even do a playback directly upon switching to it's input on the TV Studio switcher.  I know it will with the bigger boy switcher models [as this is something we do a lot at work]

The HyperMini will also output Alpha Keyed playback for using it as a "bug" for branding or for those cool looking semi-tranparent lower thirds or wipes that all the big boys use.  Pretty amazing little box for the price....

Thanks for that. Since I already have some SDI to HDMI (BMD) converters, one length of coax would do the run from the switcher to the projector which is about 130 cable feet from mix position.

I would think that since all the nasty HDMI handshakes are done between the sources and the switcher, SDI would be fine to the projector.

Anyone know where to get a good price on one of these BMD TV Studio HD switchers?

Thanks


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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2018, 02:54:25 pm »

Thanks for that. Since I already have some SDI to HDMI (BMD) converters, one length of coax would do the run from the switcher to the projector which is about 130 cable feet from mix position.

I would think that since all the nasty HDMI handshakes are done between the sources and the switcher, SDI would be fine to the projector.

Anyone know where to get a good price on one of these BMD TV Studio HD switchers?

Thanks


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Since you asked in public too I will answer.  I bought mine when distribution was very limited from B&H.  I don't think these things are discounted anywhere to be honest with you.

The HD model I have does Alpha Key right in the box and one of the pro touches is to have the session logo in one of the corners of the screen for corporate event.

The Hyperdeck is killer for crawls too but we use it for almost all our playback.  Much more convenient than a laptop.

The switcher does not handle HDCP at all. 

I use cheap ($200) Chinese scalers.  They are OK however I am sure I will pick up Decimators or Grass Valley ADVC-G1's.  When you are getting paid thousands of dollars to playback a 5 minute video clip and bring a small PA and some mics you just don't want any chance of a screw up and the Chinese converters don't fit that mission.

So back to your app.  HDCP is a handshake, it has to talk to the remote device.  The cipher key for HDCP has been out in the wild since 2010 and I have seen devices that take care of the handshake and hand off clean video.  HDCP is as idiotic as DVD region codes.

So to be clear if you send a signal with HDCP flag to the Blackmagic you will not even get frame sync.

One other thing to keep in mind with pro gear is to mind your color space.   Most consumer stuff is RGB. Commercial is YUV.  The switcher is not a colorspace converter either!

So you must strip HDCP prior to the switcher, all resolutions and refresh rates must match.  I also try to output to the projector native and do all resolution scaling on inputs. 

The main driver for a switcher is eliminating the chance to go blue on your guests if the projector goes out of sync with the source, to preview sources and to manage transitions between sources.







« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 02:58:27 pm by Scott Holtzman »
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Rob Spence

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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2018, 04:00:45 pm »

Since you asked in public too I will answer.  I bought mine when distribution was very limited from B&H.  I don't think these things are discounted anywhere to be honest with you.

The HD model I have does Alpha Key right in the box and one of the pro touches is to have the session logo in one of the corners of the screen for corporate event.

The Hyperdeck is killer for crawls too but we use it for almost all our playback.  Much more convenient than a laptop.

The switcher does not handle HDCP at all. 

I use cheap ($200) Chinese scalers.  They are OK however I am sure I will pick up Decimators or Grass Valley ADVC-G1's.  When you are getting paid thousands of dollars to playback a 5 minute video clip and bring a small PA and some mics you just don't want any chance of a screw up and the Chinese converters don't fit that mission.

So back to your app.  HDCP is a handshake, it has to talk to the remote device.  The cipher key for HDCP has been out in the wild since 2010 and I have seen devices that take care of the handshake and hand off clean video.  HDCP is as idiotic as DVD region codes.

So to be clear if you send a signal with HDCP flag to the Blackmagic you will not even get frame sync.

One other thing to keep in mind with pro gear is to mind your color space.   Most consumer stuff is RGB. Commercial is YUV.  The switcher is not a colorspace converter either!

So you must strip HDCP prior to the switcher, all resolutions and refresh rates must match.  I also try to output to the projector native and do all resolution scaling on inputs. 

The main driver for a switcher is eliminating the chance to go blue on your guests if the projector goes out of sync with the source, to preview sources and to manage transitions between sources.

Any suggestions about satisfying the HDCP? I guess I need one device somewhere in my path before the switcher to do it? That would be the scaler you mention? I presume it pretends to be a display but sends unencrypted video to the output? Do you have some suggested devices?

In my current test setup, every time I unplug an hdmi cable, even though there is always one or more displays connected, I get the blue/blank screens everywhere for 5 seconds which I am guessing is the handshakes happening all over?

I appreciate all this patience with me while providing some terrific education.


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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2018, 05:06:27 pm »

Any suggestions about satisfying the HDCP? I guess I need one device somewhere in my path before the switcher to do it? That would be the scaler you mention? I presume it pretends to be a display but sends unencrypted video to the output? Do you have some suggested devices?

In my current test setup, every time I unplug an hdmi cable, even though there is always one or more displays connected, I get the blue/blank screens everywhere for 5 seconds which I am guessing is the handshakes happening all over?

I appreciate all this patience with me while providing some terrific education.


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Yes, that's the handshake in the delay.  I don't think most scalers do anything with the HDCP bit.   I did a quick Internet search and didn't see anything definitive.  The splitters sold on eBay say HDCP stripper so they are designed to do this. 
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Re: Sanyo projector issue
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2018, 10:27:21 pm »



Yes, that's the handshake in the delay.  I don't think most scalers do anything with the HDCP bit.   I did a quick Internet search and didn't see anything definitive.  The splitters sold on eBay say HDCP stripper so they are designed to do this.

Not quite.  The better brand devices handshake with the source device, handshake with each destination (sink) device, and keep all links "hot".  That way signal can pass without hesitation, switches can be instant, etc. 

I've heard that many HDMI cheap devices are so low grade, they can't get HDCP right.  Until they get popular and then the HDCP has to be "fixed" and they no longer strip. 

There isn't a good, reliable, legal way to interface consumer and pro video gear currently.   

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