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Author Topic: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue  (Read 10527 times)

Brian Ingwell

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Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« on: March 21, 2018, 10:19:55 AM »

Hey All,

Sorry for a lengthy post.

I'm having a strange Dante issue that I haven't been able to resolve for the last couple days, so I'm coming to hit up the experts.  Here is the scenario:

We have a stage rack with (2) Yamaha Rio 3224's and (2) Cisco SG300-20 switches set up in fully redundant mode.  This connects to a FOH rack with (2) Cisco SG300-10 switches to a variety of consoles CL3, QL5, QL1 - again in fully redundant mode.  This has worked fine for many years.

We have a corporate event coming up where I need to remotely locate a Yamaha Tio 1608 and (in another remote location) a Lake LM44.  For this particular one-off event, I want to set up the Tio and the LM44 with a single SG300-10 switch doing both primary and secondary via VLANs.  I am well aware that this is not best practice and I don't want this discussion to turn into the pro's and con's of this particular setup.  I need the switches with these two devices as there are potential additional Dante devices that will need to feed the network from these locations and my belief is a failure is much more likely to occur in cabling than in the switch itself, thus my desire to run things this way on this particular show.

All of our switches are set up according to the Yamaha SG300 guide:

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/training_support/selftraining/dante_guide/chapter3/01_setting_sg300/

I've set up the two SG300's for the Tio and LM44 with (2) VLAN's, 5 ports each.  There is no trunking set up on either switch.  Both will just connect to the two separate stage SG300-20's via dual Cat lines (primary and secondary).

With a console connected directly to the stage SG300's here in the shop (bypassing the FOH switch rack), I can connect either the Tio and it's switch OR the LM44 and it's switch to the network and all is fine - each device shows up in Dante controller as it should.

However, (and here's my problem) when I connect both the Tio and it's switch and the LM44 and it's switch to the network, the Tio will drop out and disconnect.  This only occurs when I connect both primary and secondary from the two remote racks (the racks with the VLANs).  If I just connect primary lines, all is fine.

I've attached a sketch to show the setup.

The network is set up with all devices either static IP or auto-configure.  There is no DHCP server present.
All Dante devices are set up on 1 ms latency.

Here is what I have done to troubleshoot:

- Checked LM44.  It is set to redundant mode and auto configure IP.
- QL1 and Tio are also both set to redundant mode.
- If I connect the LM44 and Tio directly to the stage rack via primary and secondary (bypassing the two VLAN switches, all is fine.
- If I disconnect all devices and just connect the 4 switches together via primary and secondary and try to log into the web GUI for each switch, one of the switches with the VLANs will stall and not load.  This lead me to think maybe there was an IP address conflict so I switched the SG300's to L3 and set up static IP addresses for each VLAN, primary in 169.254.X.X. range and secondary in 172.31.X.X. range.  Not sure if this was necessary but it made no difference.

I have trippled checked both switches to make sure all VLAN settings are correct - all ports are set to access, appropriate ports on each VLAN are set to either untagged or forbidden, etc.  I even set up a spare switch with VLAN's and swapped it with both the other switches to make sure it wasn't an issue with the switches.  No difference.

I'm thinking this should be the simplest of VLAN setups and for some reason it only works with one of the VLAN switches on the network, not both.  I'm sure I'm missing something simple and I'm by no means a networking expert, so if someone sees something wrong with my setup or if I can provide additional information, please let me know.  This is driving me crazy.

Thanks much,
Brian
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Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 10:43:05 AM »

Hi Brian,

If this is a one-off, I would probably drop the VLAN idea on the endpoint switches.  Only connect the Primary network connections there (but have the Secondary cabling in place if you need to switch over to it).  There's probably something going on in the Network stack that prevents this situation from working even though you have VLANs enabled.

Jeff
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Brian Ingwell

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 11:14:48 AM »

That's the plan, Jeff, if I can't get this working, but now it's just becoming more of a quest to figure out what's going on and why this isn't working when I feel it theoretically should.  Never ending quest for knowledge, you know  ;).

Brian
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Lance Rectanus

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 11:23:23 AM »

The network is set up with all devices either static IP or auto-configure.  There is no DHCP server present.

- Checked LM44.  It is set to redundant mode and auto configure IP.

I don't know beans about Dante, but my understanding of networking is that if there is no DHCP server then auto-configure IP would fail. Unless there is a default static IP address that the LM44 would use as a fall-back?
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 02:46:29 PM »

I don't know beans about Dante, but my understanding of networking is that if there is no DHCP server then auto-configure IP would fail. Unless there is a default static IP address that the LM44 would use as a fall-back?

Spanning tree is flapping the ports.  You have two connections into the native VLAN.

Not sure why you don't want to do trunking.  It's the only way to accomplish what you are trying to do.

First off call Lanshack and get six Multimode SFP's and fiber jumpers (aerial style for the protection).

Put two SFP ports into a LAG (if one gets hosed the show goes on).  On the LAG interface trunk all of your VLAN's (you set trunk mode and make sure every VLAN is tagged).

On the device ports put only the desired VLAN in untagged mode on that port.

It is very important only one untagged VLAN per physical interface.

DHCP can be run anywhere.  Any old Cisco 800 series router ($20 on eBay) can provide DHCP on tagged interfaces.  Something consumer and small business routers can't do.  It will also run forever.


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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Brian Ingwell

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 03:20:30 PM »

Hi Scott,

Thanks for replying.  Bear with me, this gets over my head quickly.  My reason for not wanting to trunk is the rest of my network is physically separated throughout - separate switches and cabling for the primary and secondary networks.  If I were to trunk out of the VLAN switch I want to use just for this one show, how do I get back into the separate networks and switches (primary and secondary) at the other end?  I'm assuming that involves what you describe below (sorry, that part is a bit beyond me.)

My preference would be to just set up the two VLAN switches for this one show as two completely separate networks - 5 ports for each and run two cables (P/S) between them and the main network to keep in line with the rest of my infrastructure.  Is this not possible?  I know trunking would cut down on cabling and port usage, but aside from that is there another reason why my setup would not work?

I was beginning to assume there was a loop somewhere in the setup, but I can't determine where that would be with my very rudimentary understanding of vlans in this situation.  Any other advice or explanation you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 05:05:15 PM »

Hi Scott,

Thanks for replying.  Bear with me, this gets over my head quickly.  My reason for not wanting to trunk is the rest of my network is physically separated throughout - separate switches and cabling for the primary and secondary networks.  If I were to trunk out of the VLAN switch I want to use just for this one show, how do I get back into the separate networks and switches (primary and secondary) at the other end?  I'm assuming that involves what you describe below (sorry, that part is a bit beyond me.)

My preference would be to just set up the two VLAN switches for this one show as two completely separate networks - 5 ports for each and run two cables (P/S) between them and the main network to keep in line with the rest of my infrastructure.  Is this not possible?  I know trunking would cut down on cabling and port usage, but aside from that is there another reason why my setup would not work?

I was beginning to assume there was a loop somewhere in the setup, but I can't determine where that would be with my very rudimentary understanding of vlans in this situation.  Any other advice or explanation you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Brian

Perhaps Scott can define "port flapping".  It sounds kind of flatulent, but packet switched. ;)

Spanning tree is flapping the ports.  You have two connections into the native VLAN.


I think the germane parts are "spanning tree" and "..two connections..."
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Brian Ingwell

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 05:38:47 PM »

Perhaps Scott can define "port flapping".  It sounds kind of flatulent, but packet switched. ;)

I think the germane parts are "spanning tree" and "..two connections..."

My thoughts exactly, Tim.  :D

For those playing along at home, it does appear to be a spanning tree issue.  If I turn off Spanning Tree on all the switches, everything talks as it should and I get lots of nice green lights in Dante Controller, which I like.

While I don't have the networking knowledge to understand exactly why spanning tree causes an issue in this situation, I have read in a couple different places that it can be problematic for Dante in certain circumstances, so until other problems arise, I guess I'll just leave it off.

Thanks all for the help.

Regards,
Brian
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 06:14:14 PM »

Perhaps Scott can define "port flapping".  It sounds kind of flatulent, but packet switched. ;)

I think the germane parts are "spanning tree" and "..two connections..."

What do the Goddamn Germans have to do with it? 

Port Flapping, a condition where two ports, within a given collision domain, create a looped topology in an Ethernet network.  Depending on timers the port will cycle between blocked and forwarding creating intermittent connectivity.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »

My thoughts exactly, Tim.  :D

For those playing along at home, it does appear to be a spanning tree issue.  If I turn off Spanning Tree on all the switches, everything talks as it should and I get lots of nice green lights in Dante Controller, which I like.

While I don't have the networking knowledge to understand exactly why spanning tree causes an issue in this situation, I have read in a couple different places that it can be problematic for Dante in certain circumstances, so until other problems arise, I guess I'll just leave it off.

Thanks all for the help.

Regards,
Brian

Spanning Tree protects you from topology mistakes.  By turning it off you will create collisions and your error rate will rise. 

Fix it the way I instructed.  Vlan trunking and the ports in a LAG group.  No untagged traffic on inter-switch links.

If you need help doing it we can do a Teamviewer.  Would take me about 5 minutes.

You can do the LAG without the fiber but you really don't want the degradation of the copper over distance.  You can go miles on the fiber.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Networking experts needed - strange Dante issue
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 06:16:24 PM »


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