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Author Topic: Who do we need to hire?  (Read 7856 times)

Steven Welwood

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Who do we need to hire?
« on: March 17, 2018, 08:22:31 PM »

Hello,

Before I started attending my current church, they were already in the process of having the PA replaced. They had decided to use a local live event production company that had done several small to medium-sized installs, but had limited experience with a job this size. Through consultations with EV, and based on their design recommendation, the system he installed was an EV line array, which I think was probably the right choice.

The problem is that the installer doesn't have the tools or experience to optimize the system past a basic RTA reading of the room. We are satisfied that the equipment we have is what we need, but we need someone to come in with SMAART or other advanced software, and set crossover frequencies and slopes, EQ, and whatever other settings are necessary to optimize the system.

Would an A/V integrator be the person or company we are looking for? An acoustics engineer? An EV engineer? Someone else?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 09:17:03 PM »

Hello,

Before I started attending my current church, they were already in the process of having the PA replaced. They had decided to use a local live event production company that had done several small to medium-sized installs, but had limited experience with a job this size. Through consultations with EV, and based on their design recommendation, the system he installed was an EV line array, which I think was probably the right choice.

The problem is that the installer doesn't have the tools or experience to optimize the system past a basic RTA reading of the room. We are satisfied that the equipment we have is what we need, but we need someone to come in with SMAART or other advanced software, and set crossover frequencies and slopes, EQ, and whatever other settings are necessary to optimize the system.

Would an A/V integrator be the person or company we are looking for? An acoustics engineer? An EV engineer? Someone else?
There are lots of independent people who can "tune" a system.

But here is the problem.

What happens if they get there, and the cabinets are not hung properly? ie the angles between the cabinets, the position of the array etc.

Electrical adjustment can only do so much, but if the install is not properly done, there could still be coverage issues.

Often people don't want to be responsible for others work.

You can end up with awkard situations such the "tuner" says the hang isn't correct, and the installer say the "tuner" doesn't know what he is doing.

And it could  either one or a combination of both.

 I have meet  quite a few "tuners" who can talk a good game, but don't really have a good measurement foundation.

I have also seen installations in which I say to myself "WHAT were they thinking?"

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the person selling the job/installing the job to insure that it is covering properly and working properly.
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DavidTurner

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 11:06:13 PM »

Yep, what he said!

I frequently get called to a church that has a poorly implemented system. Only so much I can do with the rig as installed.


There are lots of independent people who can "tune" a system.

But here is the problem.

What happens if they get there, and the cabinets are not hung properly? ie the angles between the cabinets, the position of the array etc.

Electrical adjustment can only do so much, but if the install is not properly done, there could still be coverage issues.

Often people don't want to be responsible for others work.

You can end up with awkard situations such the "tuner" says the hang isn't correct, and the installer say the "tuner" doesn't know what he is doing.

And it could  either one or a combination of both.

 I have meet  quite a few "tuners" who can talk a good game, but don't really have a good measurement foundation.

I have also seen installations in which I say to myself "WHAT were they thinking?"

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the person selling the job/installing the job to insure that it is covering properly and working properly.
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Steven Welwood

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 12:56:47 AM »

There are lots of independent people who can "tune" a system.

But here is the problem.

What happens if they get there, and the cabinets are not hung properly? ie the angles between the cabinets, the position of the array etc.

Electrical adjustment can only do so much, but if the install is not properly done, there could still be coverage issues.

Often people don't want to be responsible for others work.

You can end up with awkard situations such the "tuner" says the hang isn't correct, and the installer say the "tuner" doesn't know what he is doing.

And it could  either one or a combination of both.

 I have meet  quite a few "tuners" who can talk a good game, but don't really have a good measurement foundation.

I have also seen installations in which I say to myself "WHAT were they thinking?"

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the person selling the job/installing the job to insure that it is covering properly and working properly.

Yup, I totally agree with you. Unfortunately I don't think we'll get what we're looking for by going back to the installer. First, it's been over a year since it was installed, and second, he'll probably come back in with his RTA, make a few tweaks, and call it good. Like I said, this decision was made before I was here. I'm just wondering who to call now to get it done properly as properly as possible.

As far as what can be done, there's nothing stopping us from changing the angle between the boxes. Turning the array would be more of a challenge, but not impossible.

I realize it's not a good situation to put someone into, and I know there's "only so much [you] can do with the rig as installed," as David said. I'm just looking for the person to get what's possible out of this rig.

There are lots of independent people who can "tune" a system.

What person *should* be qualified to do this?
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 02:16:57 AM »

Post up your location.

There's either people nearby or you can fly someone in for a day/two to do this.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 07:28:14 AM »

Speakers that have overlaps in coverage can cause comb filters, peaks and dips in response based on frequencies and distance.  Does you speaker have specifications showing 90 degree x 40 degree horns.  Do these horns patterns of 90 degree overlap.  Do they cover the area of seating well. 

Then is there enough power to have the desired level at the back. 

The 40 degree is vertical usually and should be in the front to back reach.   

The RTA or Smart programs will help with the low frequency to high frequency balance.  Are they equal and appropriate 

Acoustics problems like reverb and echo can be a problem with understanding the spoken word.  This is a design and building issue not easaly corrected because it will need construction changes.  Very few times will acoustic panels help in reducing.  Acoustic panels with directional speakers placed to keep sound off the walls or boundries combined can improve the problem to a degree. 

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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 03:21:01 PM »

What are the problems you feel need corrected?  There are those, even on here, that might be willing to help (for a fee) make a bad situation as good as possible-but as this is presented, it is a loaded situation most would not want to walk into.

How do you know the installer does not have the correct tools?  Crossovers would likely be primarily a design concern that should already have been addressed by consultation with EV.

As others have said, not everything can be fixed by electronics.  Unless you can define what's broke, a solution is impossible.  It may well be that any deficiences you are hearing are room issues that cannot be fixed by "tuning".

Our church rented a venue a week ago.  My pastor was amazed by the sound and asked "Why can't I get this?  is this a better mic than we use?"  We use Beta87s , 58's and Line 6, they had 58s.  Comparable digital board.  They have Bose Line arrays, we have QSC K12's.  Biggest difference? That is a 2 year old building built as a performing arts center-not a reflecting surface in sight, ours was built during the Civil War to enhance unamplified sound.  Electronics will never make the 2 sound the same-no matter how much tuning is done.  That is an extreme example-there is a lot of in between territory that most churches fall in to.
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Steven Welwood

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 10:06:16 PM »

Nathan, I am located in Grande Prairie, Alberta, and I'm expecting to have someone come from Edmonton or Calgary (300 and 450 miles away, respectively).

Jerome, I am aware of the potential issues with comb filtering, room interactions, etc. What I don't know is who to call to find and address these issues, which is why I am asking who would be the person most likely to help in this situation. A/V integrator? Acoustic engineer? Engineer from Electro-Voice? Other?

What are the problems you feel need corrected?  There are those, even on here, that might be willing to help (for a fee) make a bad situation as good as possible-but as this is presented, it is a loaded situation most would not want to walk into.

How do you know the installer does not have the correct tools?  Crossovers would likely be primarily a design concern that should already have been addressed by consultation with EV.

As others have said, not everything can be fixed by electronics.  Unless you can define what's broke, a solution is impossible.  It may well be that any deficiences you are hearing are room issues that cannot be fixed by "tuning".

As I said, I realize this is not a good situation, but we will make sure whoever comes in knows what they are walking into before they make the trip.

As for how I know what tools the installer has, the sound community here is very small, and I have worked for and with him off and on for around 10 years now. I am quite familiar with the tools he has and the projects he has worked on.

I'm sure the deficiencies we are hearing are a combination of system and room problems. We aren't expecting a perfect result at the end of this, but we know that there is a significant gap between the current sound quality and what is possible.

So, again, who would be the person best qualified to come into this type of situation and identify what system and room problems we have, and tune the system to its potential?

And again, we would communicate the situation and expectations before-hand. We aren't expecting the impossible, just some help with what we have.
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Robert Weaver

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 10:57:39 PM »

Hello,

Before I started attending my current church, they were already in the process of having the PA replaced. They had decided to use a local live event production company that had done several small to medium-sized installs, but had limited experience with a job this size. Through consultations with EV, and based on their design recommendation, the system he installed was an EV line array, which I think was probably the right choice.

The problem is that the installer doesn't have the tools or experience to optimize the system past a basic RTA reading of the room. We are satisfied that the equipment we have is what we need, but we need someone to come in with SMAART or other advanced software, and set crossover frequencies and slopes, EQ, and whatever other settings are necessary to optimize the system.

Would an A/V integrator be the person or company we are looking for? An acoustics engineer? An EV engineer? Someone else?

Are you having issues with the operation of the system now? 
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Robert Weaver

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Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 11:15:19 PM »

There are lots of independent people who can "tune" a system.

But here is the problem.

What happens if they get there, and the cabinets are not hung properly? ie the angles between the cabinets, the position of the array etc.

Electrical adjustment can only do so much, but if the install is not properly done, there could still be coverage issues.

Often people don't want to be responsible for others work.

You can end up with awkard situations such the "tuner" says the hang isn't correct, and the installer say the "tuner" doesn't know what he is doing.

And it could  either one or a combination of both.

 I have meet  quite a few "tuners" who can talk a good game, but don't really have a good measurement foundation.

I have also seen installations in which I say to myself "WHAT were they thinking?"

In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the person selling the job/installing the job to insure that it is covering properly and working properly.

I think another issue is changing things that may not need to be changed.  In search of a problem for a solution. What if the person you bringing hates EV equipment?  I agree that the person that installed the job should be the one responsible for commissioning the system. 
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Who do we need to hire?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 11:15:19 PM »


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