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Author Topic: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts  (Read 26570 times)

Diogo Nunes Pereira

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Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« on: March 14, 2018, 04:29:57 PM »

Hi folks.

Here's the thing... I'm in for a gig where a big network of CL/QL consoles will be used to mix 8 stages with 8 bands playing ensemble on a football (soccer) field here in Barcelona. About 6000 (kid) musicians and their teachers...

My client's idea for this is to have 8 consoles + Rios. Plus an additional FOH console (or two) to mix for the main PA (stadium seats)

Each console would mix Stage-PA and monitors for each stage/band and create a submix for the FOH-console (stadium) and to distribute to the other bands consoles for monitoring.

Each console would have it's own Rio mounted. Each console would produce a stage-PA mix for the bunch of kids playing in the close proximity of each stage.

So... some issues come to mind, and I would expect this forum to introduce me to some more "what can possibiliy go wrong" with this idea. Some of my Yamaha/Dante doubts follow:

- My understanding is a Rio needs to see a console with ID#1 to sync to... Am I wrong in this assumption? If I'm not:
- If every band-console "takes care" of it's Rio, can all consoles have ID #1?
- Then... can these consoles send sub-mix flows one to another? Patch would be done via Dante controller if needed.
- I know there's a 8 limit on Rio units a console can patch to/from. Is there a similar situation with console to console patch?

Because, as I see it now, each STAGE CL would RECEIVE flows from:

- 1 Rio3224D (band inputs)
- 7 CL consoles (other stages sub-mixes)

and TRASMIT flows to:

- 1 Rio3224D (band monitors, stage PA)
- 8 CL consoles (other stages + FOH)

Also, FOH console would RECEIVE flows from:

- 8 band consoles (stage sub-mixes)
- 1 Local-Rio (some local inputs maybe)

and TRANSMIT to:

- Stadium PA Distribution system (Amps, Lake's, Rios, ...) TBC

If needed, could we make all stage Rio's visible and patcheable into the FOH console? So FOH could blend stage-inputs and stage-sub-mixes on a per song basis. Not every song will be ensemble. Sometimes only a stage produces music. And in this case, FOH could be mixing FOH for that stage and not have to rely on sub-mixes to feed the PA.

How do we manage patch/snapshots to make this work is still something I have to thing a little more about. There are also delay/timing/tempo considerations to be fully understood...

I know it's a long post. Maybe TLDR for many. Any input is appreciatted.

Cheers

Diogo
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 05:00:57 PM »

It sounds like you may be making this more difficult than it needs to be.

Take each stage as a separate system. They have their own consoles and PA. Then you have a stereo matrix output from each of those consoles that feeds the main console that mixes everything from the stands.

You can accomplish this with network or plain old analog/fiber.

Do the stages each need to be able to hear each other? I.e. do the eight small stages need to send signal back and forth? or just to the main FOH console?

How many local inputs do you need on each stage?

The CL consoles can not do console to console patching. But the QL series of consoles can. In that regard, it may be better to have QL5s at each of the smaller stages, and then a CL5 for the main FOH console.

I think you are going to hit the device limit for Yamaha's Dante implementation if you use a separate console and RIO rack at each stage, since that would be 16 devices. The QL5 consoles have the I/O built in to the console so they would only make them one device each.

Also, if you need to send signal from each of the smaller stages to each other, that's 14 inputs (L+R, or Mono+Sub) that you eat up on each console for the other seven stages, which drops your I/O count considerably. But maybe you only need 16 local inputs on each stage and it won't be a big deal.


Someone remind me what the device limit for Dante networks is. Seems like it was 3 consoles with 8 other devices per console?
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Diogo Nunes Pereira

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 05:53:35 PM »

It sounds like you may be making this more difficult than it needs to be.

Thank you Justice four your input. Yeah... I aim to make it simple.

Quote
Do the stages each need to be able to hear each other? I.e. do the eight small stages need to send signal back and forth? or just to the main FOH console?

They might. Each stage submix will go FOH and might be used by other stages so musicians there can keep tempo.

Quote
How many local inputs do you need on each stage?

Hopefully no more than 32.Plus 7 additional stereo mixes from other stages. That makes 46 Dante input channels, if using RIO for local inputs; less using QL5' wich would be nice, but they're harder to find/rent than CL5's around here.

Quote
The CL consoles can not do console to console patching.

hhmm... What do you mean by this?

Quote
I think you are going to hit the device limit for Yamaha's Dante implementation if you use a separate console and RIO rack at each stage, since that would be 16 devices. The QL5 consoles have the I/O built in to the console so they would only make them one device each.

Someone remind me what the device limit for Dante networks is. Seems like it was 3 consoles with 8 other devices per console?

Is there a device limit on a Dante Network? I understand the Rio/device limit per console:

- Every Stage-console would have 8 devices mounted at most: 1 RIO (if using CL5) + 7 other stages consoles.
- FOH-console could possibily hit that limit: 8 stage-consoles + 8 Rios (if every stage-console was a CL5)

I don't even feel the need to mount every console everywhere. Most patch could be done using Dante Controller.
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Diogo Nunes Pereira
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 06:00:05 PM »

Hopefully no more than 32.Plus 7 additional stereo mixes from other stages. That makes 46 Dante input channels, if using RIO for local inputs; less using QL5' wich would be nice, but they're harder to find/rent than CL5's around here.

hhmm... What do you mean by this?
On the QL consoles, you can send the onboard inputs to the network and patch them to any other console on the network. With the CL series of consoles, you can't send the onboard OMNI inputs to the network. They stay on that console only.


If you can find the QL consoles in your area, you can use the 32 onboard inputs on the console, and then get a RIO1608 instead of the bigger RIO 3224.


It might be worth your while to contact Yamaha Commercial Audio Europe and get them to assist with this set up to make sure that they will do everything that you need them to.


Also, you don't necessarily need to have all of the other consoles and RIO units mounted on every console. You only need them mounted if you need to have head amp control. You can put the signal from those devices on the network and then patch those feeds to the other consoles just as inputs, like you would with inputs from a computer using DVS.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:03:16 PM by Justice C. Bigler »
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 06:05:19 PM »

Thank you Justice four your input. Yeah... I aim to make it simple.

They might. Each stage submix will go FOH and might be used by other stages so musicians there can keep tempo.

Hopefully no more than 32.Plus 7 additional stereo mixes from other stages. That makes 46 Dante input channels, if using RIO for local inputs; less using QL5' wich would be nice, but they're harder to find/rent than CL5's around here.

hhmm... What do you mean by this?

Is there a device limit on a Dante Network? I understand the Rio/device limit per console:

- Every Stage-console would have 8 devices mounted at most: 1 RIO (if using CL5) + 7 other stages consoles.
- FOH-console could possibily hit that limit: 8 stage-consoles + 8 Rios (if every stage-console was a CL5)

I don't even feel the need to mount every console everywhere. Most patch could be done using Dante Controller.

There is a 4 mixer limit on the network as there are 4 Console IDs. Each Mixer can mount 8 Rios.

See video 4.1
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/ql_series/training.html

If you set your ID to off, you can't access Rios

Ignore the finger in the photo. It was a screen grab from the linked video.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 06:09:07 PM by David Sturzenbecher »
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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 06:28:10 PM »

There is a 4 mixer limit on the network as there are 4 Console IDs. Each Mixer can mount 8 Rios.

See video 4.1
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/ql_series/training.html

If you set your ID to off, you can't access Rios

Ignore the finger in the photo. It was a screen grab from the linked video.

Diogo,
Thinking about this further....   You could have each individual stage be a Dante island from the others.  One Console, one-two rio's whatever.   Then fit each console with a Dante MY card, and network all the MY cards together on their own independent dante network.  These cards would only output submixes from each desk, to the main FOH console, and other consoles as needed.  Each MY card does 16 outs, so you could be a little granular with your sends if you really had to.

 
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Diogo Nunes Pereira

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 06:40:57 PM »

On the QL consoles, you can send the onboard inputs to the network and patch them to any other console on the network. With the CL series of consoles, you can't send the onboard OMNI inputs to the network. They stay on that console only.

Gotcha. You meant port-to-port function on the QL. I have no need to control any stage inputs (Rio or QL5) HA from other console than the local one (FOH might eventually get Gain Compensated flows from this HAs)

Quote
It might be worth your while to contact Yamaha Commercial Audio Europe and get them to assist with this set up to make sure that they will do everything that you need them to.

We're in touch... They will be around for sure.

Quote
Also, you don't necessarily need to have all of the other consoles and RIO units mounted on every console. You only need them mounted if you need to have head amp control. You can put the signal from those devices on the network and then patch those feeds to the other consoles just as inputs, like you would with inputs from a computer using DVS.

That's part of my vision to make it simple... an off the hands of the guys mixing the stages.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 06:41:01 PM »

Diogo,
Thinking about this further....   You could have each individual stage be a Dante island from the others.  One Console, one-two rio's whatever.   Then fit each console with a Dante MY card, and network all the MY cards together on their own independent dante network.  These cards would only output submixes from each desk, to the main FOH console, and other consoles as needed.  Each MY card does 16 outs, so you could be a little granular with your sends if you really had to.

+1



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Diogo Nunes Pereira

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 06:45:13 PM »

Diogo,
Thinking about this further....   You could have each individual stage be a Dante island from the others.  One Console, one-two rio's whatever.   Then fit each console with a Dante MY card, and network all the MY cards together on their own independent dante network.  These cards would only output submixes from each desk, to the main FOH console, and other consoles as needed.  Each MY card does 16 outs, so you could be a little granular with your sends if you really had to.

Interesting simplifying idea... thank you.

This would however not allow the FOH console to mix anything other than submixes. We'll have to see if we can live with that.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 07:39:37 PM »

There is a 4 mixer limit on the network as there are 4 Console IDs. Each Mixer can mount 8 Rios.

See video 4.1
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/proaudio/mixers/ql_series/training.html

If you set your ID to off, you can't access Rios

Ignore the finger in the photo. It was a screen grab from the linked video.


No. The Mixer Unit ID# only has to do with HA control. You can mount as many consoles as you like. The 8-RIO limit again has to do with HA control only.

Most people don't realize that you don't have to mount anything on the console to have access to it's inputs or outputs. You can use Dante Controller to do your routing. You don't have to do it on the Yamaha console at all. Mounting a device on the Yamaha gives you some extra capabilities like HA control, Wireless info and so on, but the audio can all be routed via DC.
The Dante patch settings on the Yamaha are just another way of accessing a subset of the stuff you can access in DC.
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Re: Many Yamaha consoles: Dante doubts
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 07:39:37 PM »


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