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Author Topic: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N  (Read 4462 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2018, 01:04:25 pm »

Or using vintage gear that has one side of the line connected to the chassis.
Stinger caps are "caps" so non lethal currents involved.  "Hot chassis" products had chassis insulated from human contact.
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How does Honda get a design like this UL listed?
UL does not approve mingling grounds with neutral, but it is pretty much by the book (their book).
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I get the genny and the floating supply-you can debate endlessly the safety aspect of floating vs grounded and generally using only one or at best 2 modern "appliances" it is going to be relatively safe using a floating ground.  But when you start interconnecting things like is usually done with sound gear the safety issue becomes a concern, IMO. 

There have been more than a few documented instances of reversed wiring in factory power cords. And as soon as there is a fault to ground from either conductor, you now have a grounded system that may or may not have overload protection in the right places.
reversed line and neutral is generally harmless... I only experienced one (borrowed) extension cord with line and ground swapped, and that was clearly a human fault (not mine, but I should have metered it before using it).
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If you use these in parallel to set up a sound system, you really need to understand how to properly set them up and take the time to meter everything according to TJs procedure as discussed in another thread.
Another reason to never bootleg grounds to neutral...

JR
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Rob Spence

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2018, 01:53:13 pm »

Or using vintage gear that has one side of the line connected to the chassis.  How does Honda get a design like this UL listed?  I get the genny and the floating supply-you can debate endlessly the safety aspect of floating vs grounded and generally using only one or at best 2 modern "appliances" it is going to be relatively safe using a floating ground.  But when you start interconnecting things like is usually done with sound gear the safety issue becomes a concern, IMO. 

There have been more than a few documented instances of reversed wiring in factory power cords. And as soon as there is a fault to ground from either conductor, you now have a grounded system that may or may not have overload protection in the right places.

If you use these in parallel to set up a sound system, you really need to understand how to properly set them up and take the time to meter everything according to TJs procedure as discussed in another thread.

The big thing I see with these sorts of generators is that they are NOT designed to be connected to any sort of infrastructure.

The design is only for cord operated tools etc. I expect they think of vintage gear as 1990s drills, sanders and the like.



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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2018, 08:01:26 pm »

these generators are great for sound systems because the power is true sine wave and clean and you can parallel them.

I agree completely that you need to know how they are wired and make sure you have the hot, neutral, and ground that you think you should.  I talked with a guy who knows his stuff and uses a number of them for a large RV and desplay trailer.  He has a custom distro and ground rod setup so he can get them to do what he wants.
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2018, 07:16:43 am »

I agree completely that you need to know how they are wired and make sure you have the hot, neutral, and ground that you think you should.  I talked with a guy who knows his stuff and uses a number of them for a large RV and desplay trailer.  He has a custom distro and ground rod setup so he can get them to do what he wants.

Hot, Neutral, and Ground, in balanced power does not exist.  V+, V-, and ground.  Transformer is wound with coil with two ends and center tap.  Same way you use a 1:1 transformer to get balanced mic or line to unbalanced.   

On the output of a bridged amp we connect the two postive leads to the speaker.  If you use a 1/4 TS into the speaker your body is exposed to the Voltage and Current available from the amps power rails.  This is why Speakon removed the Sleave from contact.  This two is balanced power. 
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 01:53:35 pm »

Hot, Neutral, and Ground, in balanced power does not exist.  V+, V-, and ground.  Transformer is wound with coil with two ends and center tap.  Same way you use a 1:1 transformer to get balanced mic or line to unbalanced.   

On the output of a bridged amp we connect the two postive leads to the speaker.  If you use a 1/4 TS into the speaker your body is exposed to the Voltage and Current available from the amps power rails.  This is why Speakon removed the Sleave from contact.  This two is balanced power.

I should have put the words Hot and Neutral in quotes.  I was referring to what we assume is "hot" and "neutral" based on the outlet mounted on the generator.  We tend to think of the longer slot on a outlet as being the "Neutral" and much more important, we might expect the long slot on one outlet to be at the same potential as the long slot on the outlet on the other generator if we have them paralleled.  This is not necessarily the case. They can be 120 volts AC apart or we can test them and make them the same.  Also there is no reference to ground at all.  No center tap or any other tap. The AC output is not related to ground at all.   You can tie the ground on the generator to either the long slot "Neutral" or the the short slot "Hot" or to some other reference.  For example, I don't know why anyone would but you could tie the safety ground on the generator to a ground rod and to the skin on your RV, and tie the long slot or "neutral" to the 12 volt positive terminal on the RV battery. 

This is what you might expect but not get unless you make it so.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 02:22:25 pm by Frank DeWitt »
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Kevin Graf

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2018, 11:55:40 am »

The NEC states that the 'Neutral' is the grounded current carrying conductor. So using a white wire or connecting to a terminal labeled Neutral doesn't make it a Neutral conductor.
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