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Author Topic: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N  (Read 4601 times)

Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2018, 10:44:54 am »


Thanks, Debbie. Good plan. That assumes that I am as prepared as you! (or as smart!) Proof in the pudding: years ago, they were relining the water main on my street.  Normally a hose is run from the temporary water main to an outside faucet to temporarily supply the house.  I have a one-way valve on the feeder line blocking incoming water, so that plan to feed the house had to be adjusted.  They fed the hose through the front window to the water meter.  I don't remember sealing the window with foam strips or securing the window for the couple weeks it took from beginning to end.  I must have put something on the window to keep the bugs out but... Cardboard, maybe? Certainly not a good sealing foam!
There will be other times and places where I will use your foam trick... Thanks Debbie! 


So, maybe an info trade?
As for security - a 2x2 or something similar fit snugly between the top of the bottom sash and the upper window frame will keep the window from going up.  Gaff tape it in place so anyone trying to shake it out of place to gain entry will have to spend too much time getting around your "security package" and will look elsewhere. Two sticks may be better than one...


Of course, if the top sash is movable a slight adjustment needs to be devised. Maybe a small bracket screwed to the top sash where the stick could secure both windows.



Sometimes indirect answers give as much utility as an answer that is narrowly focused on the problem. 


frank

The 2x2 fix is a good idea Frank.
I have a sash window in my garage and I keep an AC/dehumidifier in there for the humid summer months - not a window unit but a portable wheeled unit.
The venting plate which allows the vent hoses to exit the house go through the plate. I do the same thing with that set up - I close the sash window down onto the plate using a long piece of foam.
However, because that window does get left open when I am away, I have screwed a couple of L shaped brackets into the upper window which prevents the lower one from being opened. When the humidity and heat drops, I remove the plate and close and lock the window. Wash and repeat seasonally.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2018, 12:22:18 pm »

Looking at the internal wiring diagram, there is no connection between the inverter and ground.  The AC output is floating.  Also worth noting  The synchronizing jacks and the kit for them is not polarized.  this means that when two generators are synchronized the "neutral" (longer slot on the outlet)  can be at the same potential (Hard wired) to the "hot" or shorter slot on the outlet of the second generator.

The outlets of two generators can be reversed

So if you bonded the "neutral on one generator to ground. you have a 50% chance that you have bonded the "hot" of the second generator to ground.

I'll add that, if the output of a generator is not bonded to a zero-voltage reference (ground/frame), then calling one pole "hot" and the other "neutral" is entirely arbitrary, and determined only by the position of the slots of the receptacle.

On the other hand, if the generator outputs dual voltage (120/240), then we can more correctly call the center tap "neutral". I'm not aware of a dual voltage generator without a zero reference bond (aka "ground" or the generator frame), so calling it neutral really isn't so arbitrary after all.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2018, 12:55:59 pm »

This is generally a non issue because both line and neutral are floating inside modern gear.

You can measure what is going on crudely but setting VOM to AC volts (not amps  :o ). Touch one probe lead with your first hand while probing with the other... If both sides are hot you will measure some modest AC voltage on both.

You can do the same thing with a neon lamp probe but 60V may be marginal low for them to light up.

JR
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RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2018, 11:24:17 am »

They are indeed 60 Volts hot to ground and 60 Volts neutral to ground.  I've measured them many times to verify when I puck them up from a rental shop.
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Mike Sokol

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2018, 03:11:15 pm »

Looking at the internal wiring diagram, there is no connection between the inverter and ground.  The AC output is floating.  Also worth noting  The synchronizing jacks and the kit for them is not polarized.  this means that when two generators are synchronized the "neutral" (longer slot on the outlet)  can be at the same potential (Hard wired) to the "hot" or shorter slot on the outlet of the second generator.

Frank is 100% correct. In fact, the Honda parallel kits that I've seen don't even have a way to know which lead is neural and which one is hot. So there really is a 50/50 chance of having the neutral and hot sides of the Edison outlets reversed on the two generators. Not really dangerous, but certainly something to be aware of when doing something like using a dummy G-N bonding plug or general measurements using 3-light outlet testers, etc....
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2018, 08:02:02 pm »

The balanced power of 60 v hot and 60 v neutral is the same as the navy so The ground rod is needed.  There is no neutral in actuality on this balanced power.  You will also need a two pole power switch to turn off the power to a device.  GFI may not protect you from problems in balanced power because it is designed for unbalanced power.  Mike this might be an important safety that needs to be tested.  How will GFI respond with 60 volt power. 
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2018, 08:21:18 pm »

The balanced power of 60 v hot and 60 v neutral is the same as the navy so The ground rod is needed.  There is no neutral in actuality on this balanced power.  You will also need a two pole power switch to turn off the power to a device.  GFI may not protect you from problems in balanced power because it is designed for unbalanced power.  Mike this might be an important safety that needs to be tested.  How will GFI respond with 60 volt power.
GFCI compares the net of line current vs neutral current, so is agnostic about 120V - 0V, and +60v -(-60v). As long as the current in the line-neutral loop nets out to null, the GFCI is happy.

JR
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2018, 08:58:21 am »

Ok so when the single pole power switch turns off the power to the amp and the neutral is still able to push -60 v.  will it shut down or continue to flow.   
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2018, 09:28:07 am »

Ok so when the single pole power switch turns off the power to the amp and the neutral is still able to push -60 v.  will it shut down or continue to flow.

The power is floating.  It has no relation to ground at all. You can not light a 32 volt or a 60 volt light bulb between either side and ground.  When you open a single pole switch to a amp the amp goes off because there is no current path. No complete circuit. 
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Oddities with a Honda genny - reversed H-N
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 12:47:53 pm »

Frank is 100% correct. In fact, the Honda parallel kits that I've seen don't even have a way to know which lead is neural and which one is hot. So there really is a 50/50 chance of having the neutral and hot sides of the Edison outlets reversed on the two generators. Not really dangerous, but certainly something to be aware of when doing something like using a dummy G-N bonding plug or general measurements using 3-light outlet testers, etc....

Or using vintage gear that has one side of the line connected to the chassis.  How does Honda get a design like this UL listed?  I get the genny and the floating supply-you can debate endlessly the safety aspect of floating vs grounded and generally using only one or at best 2 modern "appliances" it is going to be relatively safe using a floating ground.  But when you start interconnecting things like is usually done with sound gear the safety issue becomes a concern, IMO. 

There have been more than a few documented instances of reversed wiring in factory power cords. And as soon as there is a fault to ground from either conductor, you now have a grounded system that may or may not have overload protection in the right places.

If you use these in parallel to set up a sound system, you really need to understand how to properly set them up and take the time to meter everything according to TJs procedure as discussed in another thread.
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