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Author Topic: Confused about video specs  (Read 2772 times)

Rob Spence

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Confused about video specs
« on: March 05, 2018, 03:05:26 pm »

Ok, I am a bit of a neophyte about video.

Some specs say HD. Some say 1080(p,i,59.9....).
Some have an X by Y set of numbers or I see 3G-sdi.

I have a bunch of gear (projector, EIDid boxes, monitors, hdmi to sdi and back , receiver etc) that all claims HD and 1080p.

But, I am having a bad time making it all work together.

Maybe unrelated but my eidid boxes (Geffen hdmi detective) used to work great with my MacBook to keep the external monitor setting right but no longer does. I think the latest MacOS broke it.

Anyway, it would be a great help if all yíall could help me understand this.


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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 03:55:14 pm »

Hey Rob,

Give us some general topography of your layout and connections as well as cable run lengths. It all matters. We used to use those EDID detectives a fair amount but it's been 5-6 years since I've seen one. I'd be tempted to try without it. Let me know and I'll try and help...
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Rob Spence

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Confused about video specs
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 05:19:20 pm »

I have a satellite tv receiver with a single hdmi out. I have been disconnecting the display and then using a usb powered 120í hdmi cable to reach a projector. Just makes it. I had an A/B switch at the projector to switch between a laptop, also at the projector, for PowerPoint and the TV. I had a pair of EDID boxes, one on each input to the switch so when switching, there was no embarrassing wait while everyone figured out resolutions.
It worked fine for years.

Now I have two new things to accomplish.
First, relocate the source selection switching and the laptop to the audio mix position. This happens to be about 135í from the TV source. So, the long hdmi cable wonít reach. However, I can use the long hdmi cable from the mix position to the projector. I have a pair of Blackmagic mini converters to and from hdmi & sdi 6G. I planned to use a 150í length of RG6.

The problem is that I am trying to check this all out at home as I wonít have access to the venue again to test until show day. At home I was attempting to take the output of my Yamaha home receiver and send it via sdi to the projector but it is mostly not working. Partly, I am guessing the Yamaha doesnít want to switch to the resolution I need?
My next experiment is to use a TiVo for the source.
The sdi to hdmi converter also has audio extraction which I need to test. If I can get it to work I donít need to run a pair of 135í XLR cables also.

Second, I need to split the hdmi at the TV to reconnect the local display.

Thanks for any help.


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« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 05:21:25 pm by Rob Spence »
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 12:12:38 am »

HDCP signal encryption could be your problem here.  I donít recall if BM converters strip it or choke on it.  A PC with HDMI output is a good test source.  Odds are your receiver and TiVo both always output a HDCP encrypted signal.  Apple hardware also always outputs HDCP.  If you know youíll be tangling with HDCP sources you could switch to HDBaseT instead of SDI or you could check out decimator designs MD-HX.  That has stripped HDCP for me in the past.

As long as you are coming out an actual HDMI port you should be getting a proper broadcast video formatted signal which your converters will recognize.  1080i 59.94 is a broadcast standard, see if that works for you.  Moving to 1080p can introduce new complications that I wonít get into now.

For source switching a proper switcher/scaler is a good choice.  It will maintain a constant connection to the projector and save you from the edid stuff youíve dealt with.  There are units with native SDI and/or HDBaseT built in.  HDBT preserves HDCP which is why it can be good in situations where the switcher doesnít strip it.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 12:14:26 am »

I had been thinking of replacing the A/B switch with a Roland V-1HD (or V-1SDI though a bit beyond what I would like to spend). With the Roland I can have a monitor to see the TV feed before we switch to it. I have been queuing from the audio.

I donít know if it matters but the projector is a DVI in.


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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 09:27:54 am »

I had been thinking of replacing the A/B switch with a Roland V-1HD (or V-1SDI though a bit beyond what I would like to spend). With the Roland I can have a monitor to see the TV feed before we switch to it. I have been queuing from the audio.

I donít know if it matters but the projector is a DVI in.


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A video switch with a preview bus is a great tool to have.  I donít know that specific unit but make sure it has framesync and frameconverters on the inputs.  Thatís what will convert incoming signals to the correct resolution (if needed).

DVI shouldnít make a difference.  For your purpose itís pretty much just a locking HDMI connector.  This assumes that the pj accepts standard television formats (1080i/p 720p etc) and that it accepts HDCP.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 12:37:28 pm »

A video switch with a preview bus is a great tool to have.  I donít know that specific unit but make sure it has framesync and frameconverters on the inputs.  Thatís what will convert incoming signals to the correct resolution (if needed).

DVI shouldnít make a difference.  For your purpose itís pretty much just a locking HDMI connector.  This assumes that the pj accepts standard television formats (1080i/p 720p etc) and that it accepts HDCP.

Hmmm, I suspect the projector has no idea about HDCP. In fact, neither do I. It is not a new projector. It has component, DVI and VGA inputs. It does accept 1080p.


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Erik Jerde

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 10:39:08 pm »

Hmmm, I suspect the projector has no idea about HDCP. In fact, neither do I. It is not a new projector. It has component, DVI and VGA inputs. It does accept 1080p.


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Iíd bet it does handle it.  Whatís the make and model?  Should be an easy spec to look up.
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Rob Spence

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2018, 12:18:27 pm »

Iíd bet it does handle it.  Whatís the make and model?  Should be an easy spec to look up.

Itís a Sanyo PLC-XTC50L XGA projector. And, yes, it has an input mode for HDCP.



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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 06:22:46 pm »

So, on another thread, someone mentioned hdmi to sdi and not passing HDCP?

I bought the Blackmagic Mini Converter HDMI to SDI 6G (and reverse) on the thought it would future proof me.

Any new thoughts? I am stuck here and have got to move forward.



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brian maddox

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 06:50:57 pm »

So, on another thread, someone mentioned hdmi to sdi and not passing HDCP?

I bought the Blackmagic Mini Converter HDMI to SDI 6G (and reverse) on the thought it would future proof me.

Any new thoughts? I am stuck here and have got to move forward.



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Okay, first of all video is FREAKING STUPID!!!!!

There, i got that out of the way...

So, this one is a lot like audio troubleshooting.  try to remove as much as possible from the equation and then get it to work.  Then add pieces a bit at a time.

i'm a little confused about all the particulars of your situation, so i'll just list a few video gotchas in no particular order.

1.  HDCP is stupid and will bite you.  If you can find any way to output an HDMI source without it [such as the aforementioned PC/MAC] i'd do so just to remove that variable.  If you're coming from your receiver at home, presumably you are using a BluRay or Sat receiver or some such as your actual source and that can definitely be looking for the magic HDCP handshake in order to function.
    1a.  Firmware updates that happen in the background on things like Sat receivers or basically ANY device that sits on the internet can make perfectly functional HDCP systems break overnight and without warning.  Ask me how i know....

2.  1080p has just enough weird variations to ALSO bite you.  If at all possible stick to 1080i or 720p to get this stuff working.  You can always try to up it to 1080p once you know it's all talking.  If you're using a Sat receiver or some such as your input source, try to hook it up to something that works and see if you can set it's output resolution to 720p or 1080i.

3.  If you have ANY way of getting your hands on a Decimator MD-HX even just for testing, do so.  Any video guy is gonna have one of these in their toolkit.  It basically will take just about any video format and make it just about any other video format.  AND tell you what the thing it's getting IS [which is probably the most important thing].

4.  Getting the audio out of the BMD SD-HDMI converter will basically just work once you get the other parts sorted.  What you're doing is "de-embedding" which is kinda an automatic process, especially if you're outputting to analog.  It'll essentially act as a Y cable, putting the embedded audio on to the analog outs as well as continuing to pass the embedded audio along the SDI video path.  So that's good news.  :)

Let me know if any of what i've said just raised other questions.  I've learned just enough vidiocy along the way to create a well and proper trip hazard.  Happy to take you along for the ride....
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Rob Spence

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 10:47:42 pm »

Okay, first of all video is FREAKING STUPID!!!!!

There, i got that out of the way...

So, this one is a lot like audio troubleshooting.  try to remove as much as possible from the equation and then get it to work.  Then add pieces a bit at a time.

i'm a little confused about all the particulars of your situation, so i'll just list a few video gotchas in no particular order.

1.  HDCP is stupid and will bite you.  If you can find any way to output an HDMI source without it [such as the aforementioned PC/MAC] i'd do so just to remove that variable.  If you're coming from your receiver at home, presumably you are using a BluRay or Sat receiver or some such as your actual source and that can definitely be looking for the magic HDCP handshake in order to function.
    1a.  Firmware updates that happen in the background on things like Sat receivers or basically ANY device that sits on the internet can make perfectly functional HDCP systems break overnight and without warning.  Ask me how i know....

2.  1080p has just enough weird variations to ALSO bite you.  If at all possible stick to 1080i or 720p to get this stuff working.  You can always try to up it to 1080p once you know it's all talking.  If you're using a Sat receiver or some such as your input source, try to hook it up to something that works and see if you can set it's output resolution to 720p or 1080i.

3.  If you have ANY way of getting your hands on a Decimator MD-HX even just for testing, do so.  Any video guy is gonna have one of these in their toolkit.  It basically will take just about any video format and make it just about any other video format.  AND tell you what the thing it's getting IS [which is probably the most important thing].

4.  Getting the audio out of the BMD SD-HDMI converter will basically just work once you get the other parts sorted.  What you're doing is "de-embedding" which is kinda an automatic process, especially if you're outputting to analog.  It'll essentially act as a Y cable, putting the embedded audio on to the analog outs as well as continuing to pass the embedded audio along the SDI video path.  So that's good news.  :)

Let me know if any of what i've said just raised other questions.  I've learned just enough vidiocy along the way to create a well and proper trip hazard.  Happy to take you along for the ride....

Thanks for the words of wisdom.

This is what I am wanting.
My video sources are a Sat receiver and either or both a PC or Macbook laptop.
The Sat receiver is 130í from mix position. I would like to get my signal and also feed the local tv.
The laptops are local to the mix position.
The projector is about 100í from mix position. It has a DVI input.

I have a 120í amplified HDMI cable. I was planning to use it to go to the projector.

Help?



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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 11:33:47 pm »

So, on another thread, someone mentioned hdmi to sdi and not passing HDCP?

I bought the Blackmagic Mini Converter HDMI to SDI 6G (and reverse) on the thought it would future proof me.

Any new thoughts? I am stuck here and have got to move forward.



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SDI doesn't pass HDCP.  Either the converter chokes on it and you get nothing (in whatever way that specific gear fails) or it strips it and then you don't have to worry about it anymore.  It won't tell you if it strips in the specs since the HDCP people would get a bit upset about that.  I do know that the decimator MD-HX does strip it.  The MD-HX is a much more useful piece of gear than any blackmagic device.

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Rob Spence

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Confused about video specs
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2018, 12:51:10 am »

SDI doesn't pass HDCP.  Either the converter chokes on it and you get nothing (in whatever way that specific gear fails) or it strips it and then you don't have to worry about it anymore.  It won't tell you if it strips in the specs since the HDCP people would get a bit upset about that.  I do know that the decimator MD-HX does strip it.  The MD-HX is a much more useful piece of gear than any blackmagic device.

Ok, help me understand this some more...
The receiver tries to do an HDCP handshake with what it thinks is a display but it gets a hdmi to sdi converter and .....?

Oh, and I ordered a decimator. Seems like good test gear if for no other reason.

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 01:08:29 am »

Ok, help me understand this some more...
The receiver tries to do an HDCP handshake with what it thinks is a display but it gets a hdmi to sdi converter and .....?

Oh, and I ordered a decimator. Seems like good test gear if for no other reason.

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HDMI isn't all evil.  The physical plugs are a bit lame (fragile, non-locking).  Once you can get past thinking HDMI = video to thinking HDMI = multiple 2-way protocols - it's not so bad. 

You will want some "Swiss army knife" devices around for troubleshooting. 

It's like audio.  You wouldn't connect an RJ45 connectored cheap Cat5e cable between two devices and expect them to just work.  There is at least a basic understanding of TCP/IP, Dante, QLan, AES50, etc required.  It's the same with HDMI. 

There are a few ways to get video past 30' reliably, all have their strengths and weaknesses.  SDI, HD base T, and various HD over IP solutions exist, none is one size fits all. 

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Rob Spence

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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2018, 02:00:22 pm »

So, it seems to me I need HD base T for my application? SDI only for non HDCP sources?



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Confused about video specs
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2018, 05:13:31 pm »

With video there are some caveats...

1. All devices must be set to the exact same resolution settings in order to work with each other. Think static IP addressing

2. There are different, uh...ĒflavorsĒ of SDI - A and B. Black Magic gear defaults to B, most other gear defaults to A. The MD-HX you bought will allow you to change this, but so may the Black Magic software with the most current firmware.

3. HDCP is usually activated one of two ways: the first is when the playback material demands it, the second is when the source hardware detects an HDCP-compliant connection.

Analog Way is one company that makes switchers with the ability to turn off HDCP compliance in the I/O (HDMI or DVI only), thus dealing with the more common hardware issue. Apple laptops are notorious for this.

I have not yet tried a Decimator unit in a similar capacity, but if it works, that would be great!

4. Active HDMI/DVI cables typically donít like any couplers or extensions, and most get the juice that powers the EQ chip from the Sink/Display end.
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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2018, 07:36:26 pm »

With video there are some caveats...

1. All devices must be set to the exact same resolution settings in order to work with each other. Think static IP addressing

2. There are different, uh...ĒflavorsĒ of SDI - A and B. Black Magic gear defaults to B, most other gear defaults to A. The MD-HX you bought will allow you to change this, but so may the Black Magic software with the most current firmware.

3. HDCP is usually activated one of two ways: the first is when the playback material demands it, the second is when the source hardware detects an HDCP-compliant connection.

Analog Way is one company that makes switchers with the ability to turn off HDCP compliance in the I/O (HDMI or DVI only), thus dealing with the more common hardware issue. Apple laptops are notorious for this.

I have not yet tried a Decimator unit in a similar capacity, but if it works, that would be great!

4. Active HDMI/DVI cables typically donít like any couplers or extensions, and most get the juice that powers the EQ chip from the Sink/Display end.
Thanks

My active hdmi cable has a usb pigtail at the source end to power it.

If the hdmi to sdi and the sdi to hdmi are same flavor, does the flavor really matter?
I could see if you had a camera that output flavor A then a flavor B sdi to hdmi converter would not work.



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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2018, 07:16:13 pm »

Thanks

My active hdmi cable has a usb pigtail at the source end to power it.

If the hdmi to sdi and the sdi to hdmi are same flavor, does the flavor really matter?
I could see if you had a camera that output flavor A then a flavor B sdi to hdmi converter would not work.



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Your BMDs will work together just fine.  You have to basically make most of their stuff jump through hoops to change from A to B or vice versa.

Although, as it turns out, some of their devices DO prefer A.  And some will NOT see B.  Or 1080p60.  But 1080p30 will be fine.  But only one flavor.  Unless it's the older one.  Or you update the firmware.  Or ya know....  'cause reasons....

I'm putting together a Video Studio at work right now and while i'm not directly in charge of getting all the video to work i've had a good bit of a hand in.  And yeah, going to 1080p60 [really 59.94 but i digress] has introduced the A versus B issue in spades. 

Did i mention Video Sucked?  :)
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Re: Confused about video specs
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2018, 03:38:25 pm »

So, I picked up a Decimator and that helps with knowing that you have. I got a HDMI extender and 150í of cat6 and a separate audio extractor. Hooked it all up and it all worked.

Things are looking up. Now to address a projector issue. Started a new thread on it.


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