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Author Topic: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit  (Read 5628 times)

Kevin McDonough

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Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« on: March 04, 2018, 10:26:43 AM »

hey

A few times in the past I've been forced to run wireless guitar over standard RF kit using beltpacks and instrument cables, rather than dedicated guitar wireless system of the kind that Line6 etc sell.  While we've always gotten it to work its always just been a bit of a faff with settings and things, and while we've gotten through a one off show I've never been totally happy with it or been sure that it's been set up optimally.

However a band I work with are looking to set up like this on a permanent basis, and so I'd like to get my head into it in more detail.

We'd be running it from a rack of 4 systems with proper antenna distribution etc. Two channels would be vocals, and two the guitar and bass. While the vocals will obviously go straight to the desk, my plan would be that the signal from the guitar systems would need to come out of the Rx, run along XLR to the pedal boards for each player and a jack converter would allow them to connect to the pedal boards. This would then feed the amp as normal, and then the amp would be mic'd.

So my questions really are around the impedance differences between the guitar and normal signals. How will the belt packs handle the much higher impedance of the guitar when plugged in with an instrument cable.

After that, how will the output of this work when fed into the pedal board, which is obviously expecting a high impedance guitar signal coming in not the mic/line level from a wireless Rx. And as this part will be a balanced out going to an unbalanced guitar pedal, just bus pin 3 to ground? Or how else should the jack adapter be wired?

Any advice from people who normally set this up would be much appreciated.

Kev





« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 10:29:22 AM by Kevin McDonough »
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Henry Cohen

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2018, 01:20:48 PM »

A few times in the past I've been forced to run wireless guitar over standard RF kit using beltpacks and instrument cables, rather than dedicated guitar wireless system of the kind that Line6 etc sell.  While we've always gotten it to work its always just been a bit of a faff with settings and things, and while we've gotten through a one off show I've never been totally happy with it or been sure that it's been set up optimally.

However a band I work with are looking to set up like this on a permanent basis, and so I'd like to get my head into it in more detail.

We'd be running it from a rack of 4 systems with proper antenna distribution etc. Two channels would be vocals, and two the guitar and bass. While the vocals will obviously go straight to the desk, my plan would be that the signal from the guitar systems would need to come out of the Rx, run along XLR to the pedal boards for each player and a jack converter would allow them to connect to the pedal boards. This would then feed the amp as normal, and then the amp would be mic'd.

So my questions really are around the impedance differences between the guitar and normal signals. How will the belt packs handle the much higher impedance of the guitar when plugged in with an instrument cable.

After that, how will the output of this work when fed into the pedal board, which is obviously expecting a high impedance guitar signal coming in not the mic/line level from a wireless Rx. And as this part will be a balanced out going to an unbalanced guitar pedal, just bus pin 3 to ground? Or how else should the jack adapter be wired?

Any advice from people who normally set this up would be much appreciated.

You are correct in that the gain level and impedance must be a closer match than simply a direct connection.  Most of the major manufactures either offer a pre-made 1/4" TS instrument cable with an internal resistor network, and different transmitter connector pinout if applicable, or provide wiring instruction in their manual or online to build your own.

As to keeping the guitar receivers with those for the vocals, that seems clumsy to me, but if that's the route you choose to go, you'll need a matching transformer at the pedal board to properly convert the balanced XLR line from the receiver to unbalanced at the correct impedance for the pedals.
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2018, 05:25:30 PM »

You are correct in that the gain level and impedance must be a closer match than simply a direct connection.  Most of the major manufactures either offer a pre-made 1/4" TS instrument cable with an internal resistor network, and different transmitter connector pinout if applicable, or provide wiring instruction in their manual or online to build your own.

As to keeping the guitar receivers with those for the vocals, that seems clumsy to me, but if that's the route you choose to go, you'll need a matching transformer at the pedal board to properly convert the balanced XLR line from the receiver to unbalanced at the correct impedance for the pedals.
I agree Henry, it does seem "clumsy" but I have see guitar setups with receivers at the pedal board, and receivers in upstage racks.
As long as there is a matching transformer at the pedal board, and corrected level for the pedal inputs, it works fine.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 05:40:27 PM by Keith Broughton »
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Russell Ault

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 05:39:36 PM »

I agree Henry, it does seem "clumsy" but I have see guitar setups with receivers at the pedal board, and receivers in upstage racks.

I've always been curious about this (having seen both as well): where is the "best" place to put wireless guitar RX?

-Russ
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2018, 05:42:18 PM »

I've always been curious about this (having seen both as well): where is the "best" place to put wireless guitar RX?

-Russ
Having it right in front of the player, at the pedal board, might be a bit close and the receiver's RF input may overload.
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David Winners

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 06:02:02 PM »

I have used a Line6 G30 digital for years mounted on my pedal board. It's by far the best wireless solution I have found for bass guitar, and it travels work me when I do fill in work or at practice.
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2018, 07:26:09 PM »

Radial Engineering makes the Dragster to place inline between the pack and instrument.
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DavidTurner

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 03:18:24 PM »

We routinely use Shure uhfr and Axient systems with acoustic And electric instruments using the Shure t4f cables. I have the receivers racked in monitor world and return the signals thru my sub snake system with  regular passive di at the pedal board reversed. I set the outputs of the receivers to mic and the gain throughout at 0 db. This lets me have All receivers on a network to be programmed by wwb. Also, if we have issues during the show (very rare btw) the guitar tech just takes the offending unit a cable and the level doesn’t change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 12:24:29 PM »

For "big stage" acts the wireless receivers are usually located by the guitar amps.  If there's a pedalboard they'll have some means to go from the amp to the pedalboard and back.  Much less common is having the receivers racked at monitor world, since there's an unknown distance from there to the pedals or amps.
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DavidTurner

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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 11:58:06 PM »

For "big stage" acts the wireless receivers are usually located by the guitar amps.  If there's a pedalboard they'll have some means to go from the amp to the pedalboard and back.  Much less common is having the receivers racked at monitor world, since there's an unknown distance from there to the pedals or amps.

While I am certain this is true,(I've seen other acts on the bill do it this way) it is simpler in my situation to have the receivers near me and on the same network...simplifies coordination and deployment. The other options are:

1. Manually program each receiver using data from my coordination software - which takes up a good bit of time (the method I used to use)

2. Run ethernet from my switch to each receiver (which I considered doing at one point)

It is much easier to use the multicore sub snakes that run from monitor world to each player's position already. The reversed d.i.s are mounted on the pedal boards and the extra mic cable is loomed with the other mic and power cables for each player's position - labeled and color coded.  Plus, should we have RF issues, the guitar tech can temporarily substitute a guitar cable and bring me the problem transmitter to choose a back up frequency and re-sync. The wireless is then back online before the next song.

When we play festivals with little set up time, freeing up even a few minutes can reduce stress - especially if one person (me) is responsible for mixing monitors,  wireless coordination and deployment, and wiring the stage.
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Re: Running wireless guitar on standard RF kit
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 11:58:06 PM »


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