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Very true subs do take the edge off the mid-high range... what would be the most scalable for a hypothetical audiophile type setup for 300-1000 person gigs...

subs with 8" tops to save money
- 0 (0%)
subs with 10" tops to save money
- 2 (15.4%)
subs with 12" tops
- 11 (84.6%)
subs with 15" tops
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12  (Read 10406 times)

Robert Lofgren

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2018, 02:27:39 pm »

The rcf 712 sound really good, even without a sub using e.g. a roland td30 in bar-like places. People have asked where Iíve hidden the sub ;-)
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Joseph Amodeo

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2018, 05:40:01 pm »

Thanks for all of the answers... it makes sense that a sub would lead to more clear highs and mids... I would be open to using one sub. would that mean I should use smaller tops... such as 8"... even if i wanted to do 300 people... or should i get 12" or 15" tops just to be safe if i ever wanted to scale up...

im hearing that DXR's are shine better with subs... but do i really wanna go that route? maybe the RCF's are better... or even some ev zlx with subs...  what about the QSC vs JBL debate?
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2018, 08:23:06 pm »

I would be open to using one sub. would that mean I should use smaller tops... such as 8"... even if i wanted to do 300 people... or should i get 12" or 15" tops just to be safe if i ever wanted to scale up...
Yes, if you have a 15" sub there is no need for a 15" main a 12" or 10" would do. However these traditional style PA speakers don't scale up terribly well if what you mean by that is to just add more of the same, you can add more to get a wider horizontal coverage area but it doesn't work out as well if it is for greater output SPL. So you will be gig size limited by the output capability of a particular box so it makes sense to get those with the highest output. The RCF boxes you started this thread with are similar in terms of SPL and sound quality with EV ZLXs.. capable when paired with a sub of covering those smaller events, the DXRs would be a step up. If you step up further to something like a JBL SRX812 or RCF 7xx or HD32 with their larger compression drivers you get a significant improvement in live vocal clarity and more real world clean output SPL, but I'm sure if you look up the specs these boxes don't look to be much louder than the DXRs but that gets into some specs gamemanship the manufacturers play.  In terms of subs scaling does work fortunately so you can double or even quadruple your count down the road and somewhat increase the size of event you rig can comfortably handle, but it will never be a 1000 person rig IMO that is something that is well outside what this class of speaker is suitable for.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 12:50:03 am by Paul G. OBrien »
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Joseph Amodeo

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 03:29:30 pm »

Yes, if you have a 15" sub there is no need for a 15" main a 12" or 10" would do. However these traditional style PA speakers don't scale up terribly well if what you mean by that is to just add more of the same, you can add more to get a wider horizontal coverage area but it doesn't work out as well if it is for greater output SPL. So you will be gig size limited by the output capability of a particular box so it makes sense to get those with the highest output. The RCF boxes you started this thread with are similar in terms of SPL and sound quality with EV ZLXs.. capable when paired with a sub of covering those smaller events, the DXRs would be a step up. If you step up further to something like a JBL SRX812 or RCF 7xx or HD32 with their larger compression drivers you get a significant improvement in live vocal clarity and more real world clean output SPL, but I'm sure if you look up the specs these boxes don't look to be much louder than the DXRs but that gets into some specs gamemanship the manufacturers play.  In terms of subs scaling does work fortunately so you can double or even quadruple your count down the road and somewhat increase the size of event you rig can comfortably handle, but it will never be a 1000 person rig IMO that is something that is well outside what this class of speaker is suitable for.

PRETTY GENIUS.... 

to paraphrase.... one major option of going about it would be to be to get some sort of sub (at least 15") paired with 8-10 inch tops...

sometimes i need to be reminded that bigger size means broader frequency range... (dynamic range?? what is that called?)... and therefore... pairing a sub with some 8"-10" inch speakers would be fine...

furthermore... it seems like whatever 8"-10" tops i get... i should go for the ones with the most clarity and "sound quality"
 
I asked "but what if i want to get something more scalable... in terms of more people and bigger venues?"... you seem to imply out that "scaling up" venue wise would mean getting tops with the highest... SPL...

so where does that leave us:

- sub over 15"
- whatever 8-10 inch tops that have the most clarity and highest SPL if you plan to scale... (getting 15" is only for people that for some reason need bass in their tops)

here's where i have to raise an issue... isn't it true that getting tops with higher SPL sometimes just means getting the same speaker just larger... I have been calling QSC and EV etc etc... the customer support people are very helpful and they confirmed that the 12"-15" tops simply have a higher SPL than the same model 10"-12".... i dont get it?? is there some kind of 8" speaker


is it true that people often just bring 4 tops for bigger venues... isnt this avoidable by just getting something that packs the most SPL

ive been combing the stats for these speakers and apparently EV is lieing about the SPL of the ZLX (no im not talking about the whole continueous vs max wattage thing which they also lie about) so when people say that 128dB on the ZLX and 138 on the QSC isnt noticable... what happens when the company is just lieing and now youre stuck with garbage...


i have heard that the yamaha DSR are better than QSC K's... arent the yamaha's kind of gimmicky with digital conversion apparently... and the QSC's lack a bunch of features that are gonna be crappy anyway.. and overall better built...

also QSC tops are pretty much the best in terms of SPL ...as i alluded to above... im finding it hard to believe that an 8" QSC has a higher SPL than 15" EV ZLX... people have tested it and found the ZLX 15" to be louder...
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2018, 09:09:38 pm »


so where does that leave us:

- sub over 15"
- whatever 8-10 inch tops that have the most clarity and highest SPL if you plan to scale... (getting 15" is only for people that for some reason need bass in their tops)
It's all relative. A good match would be 8" tops with a 12" sub, 10" tops with a 15" sub, 12" tops with an 18" sub, 15" tops with dual 18" subs. Assuming these speakers are all from the same family these pairings would produce balanced sound and each step up will produce higher sustained and peak SPL and therefore be suitable for larger events.

here's where i have to raise an issue... isn't it true that getting tops with higher SPL sometimes just means getting the same speaker just larger... I have been calling QSC and EV etc etc... the customer support people are very helpful and they confirmed that the 12"-15" tops simply have a higher SPL than the same model 10"-12".... i dont get it??
This is just physics, air is a thin medium so the bigger the transducer the higher it's sensitivity and the louder it can get... all else being equal. But there are other tradeoffs that come into play with larger drivers so it's not as simple as bigger is always better. The best advice I could give you is buy the system that will comfortably serve 80-90% of your events and rent whatever is appropriate for those infrequent large events, that way you're not stuck carrying around a big heavy system that runs at 1/4 output most of the time.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 09:16:05 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Joseph Amodeo

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2018, 09:26:14 pm »

the spl rating for Yamaha DXR8 is 129... which is basically more than the EZ ZLX112p which is 126... and also more or about the same as the ZLX115p...

apparently a speaker with SPL in the 130s and another in the 120s isnt going to be noticable...

im also interested in hearing what speakers are going to have the least "processing"... as a recording guy i know that the less digital <--> analog conversions (and vice versa) the better for the overall sound quality... also 9/10 times manufacturers are going to use cheap converters because they dont specialize in that industry or to cut costs... same goes for any gear loaded with effects etc... would that be RCF?  i really am not a huge fan of the RCF sound i kind of like the QSC K sound...i find that the JBL PRX sound like youre in the room with the singer its basically just accurate AF... where QSC K seem to have somewhat of a box-y but clear sound... the RCF just sound loud and decent... and some say smoother... but seem less crisp to me?

i wouldn't mind lugging around 12 inch speakers to small gigs because I hate renting... any small gigs are going to be very close to my house anyway.... and at least it solves volume issues at house parties...

anybody recommend any good subs with that in mind?

what is the frequency response on most subs as im seeing that the QSC K's don't go all the way down to 50Hz...  only to 56Hz...


it seems like there a war going on vs QSC vs JBL.... it seems like it comes down to what does the best in the mids and highs... it seems liek all anyone has to say about the JBL's is that they have better bass... (wtf?)... but the real question should be what sounds less harsh at higher volumes... what sounds more clear, i dunno you tell me!

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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2018, 12:42:09 am »

the spl rating for Yamaha DXR8 is 129... which is basically more than the EZ ZLX112p which is 126... and also more or about the same as the ZLX115p...
The DXR line has more power on hand than the ZLX and this will offset some of the efficiency difference, this is also a good example of why you can't really compare specs between brands these days because every manufacturer does it differently.

apparently a speaker with SPL in the 130s and another in the 120s isnt going to be noticable...
Yes it is.

im also interested in hearing what speakers are going to have the least "processing"... as a recording guy i know that the less digital <--> analog conversions (and vice versa) the better for the overall sound quality... also 9/10 times manufacturers are going to use cheap converters because they dont specialize in that industry or to cut costs... same goes for any gear loaded with effects etc...
You appear to be bringing a lot of baggage with you in terms of preconceived notions. All of these powered speakers have a LOT of processing in them and it is that processing that makes them sound as good as they do, so no you do not want the speaker with the least processing. There is no chance you can do as good a job as the designers did at extracting the level of performance these speakers deliver with anywhere near the same level of durability.

i wouldn't mind lugging around 12 inch speakers to small gigs because I hate renting... any small gigs are going to be very close to my house anyway.... and at least it solves volume issues at house parties...
You won't have any problem summoning a visit from the police with any of these boxes at a house party.

anybody recommend any good subs with that in mind?
Get the matching unit from the same line of speakers as your tops, not just because it will look good but because they are designed to work together.

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Geert Friedhof

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2018, 12:04:39 pm »

I own a few sets of RCF 8004as with HD32mk4, and i would do 250 cap rooms with 2 8004's and 1 HD32 per side, just to be on the safe side with lows. That's 2x18" and 12"/3" per side. Usually i can get by with 1 8004 per side. Depends on the type of music, and level required. There's an unwritten rule that your max sub output should be at least 6dB, but pref. 10dB more than the top(s). I wouldn't think about using only tops for 250 people, not even 100. 50? maybe.

It's better to turn things down than to turn it up to 11.

So my advice: Buy the best sounding 12" tops, with the biggest baddest high driver you can afford, and save up (fast) for the matching 18" subs. it's the only way to ever accomplish what you want, imho.
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Joseph Amodeo

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2018, 02:49:31 pm »

PA speakers is definitely one of the hardest decisions in my life lol...

im leaning towards getting RCF art310a with some kind of subs... I can get these for 350 each and im skeptical about pulling the trigger on such small speakers...

im also inclined to just get the ZLX112p for $200-$250 and get some subs... if loudness differences are not noticable and frequency responce isnt an issue because subs will be used... im just confused as to why everybody doesnt just do this... especially since the ZLX have a nice warm tone and decent clarity... 

if processing is such a good thing.. maybe the DXR are the way to go because not only are they very flat sounding and balanced, but many are saying theyre better than qsc...

does anybody have any bad experiences with the DXR's such as with the bass contour options and stuff like that...

also im hearing that the JBL's have the best limiters where other brands have screwed up limiters that will not let you reach listed max SPL... (the more you turn up the volume the lower it gets) I want to get something thats gonna be solid in what it does not have a bunch of cheap features




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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: RCF 312a VS. Yamaha DXR 12
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2018, 05:01:42 pm »

im also inclined to just get the ZLX112p for $200-$250 and get some subs... if loudness differences are not noticable and frequency responce isnt an issue because subs will be used... im just confused as to why everybody doesnt just do this... especially since the ZLX have a nice warm tone and decent clarity... 
That will be a decent entry level system but don't kid yourself there are several levels better you could have with more output and better clarity at high SPLs but you will have to pay more for each step up the ladder. People make strange choices when it comes to PA speakers, often they just buy the cheapest box they can find or the biggest they can afford because it looks more impressive.

if processing is such a good thing.. maybe the DXR are the way to go because not only are they very flat sounding and balanced, but many are saying theyre better than qsc...
They are a step up from the EV ZLX for sure, I really like mine.

does anybody have any bad experiences with the DXR's such as with the bass contour options and stuff like that...
No. The contour switch applies a smiley curve EQ that lessens back to flat the closer you get to max output.. this is a Yamaha feature found in many of their home audio products. It is well done and not at all excessive in it's boost. The EVs have a similar feature via the EQ options in the DSP menu.

also im hearing that the JBL's have the best limiters where other brands have screwed up limiters that will not let you reach listed max SPL... (the more you turn up the volume the lower it gets) I want to get something thats gonna be solid in what it does not have a bunch of cheap features
None of the boxes mentioned here have gimic features they all work very well.
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