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Author Topic: System limiters in series  (Read 1301 times)

David Allred

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System limiters in series
« on: February 22, 2018, 11:06:27 am »

I plan to use the compressor on the LR output of my MR18 as a limiter.  I can set as RMS or peak.  I also use a Venu360 for zoning, monitor, and its other capabilities, including limiting.  It also has the choice of RMS or peak.
I want to use one for peak and the other for RMS.  Is there a preferred order as to which is in line first? Any considerations?

The follow-up question concerns attack times.  From what I've read, horn drivers need faster attack and subs need a slower attack (if I remember right).  Is that correct?

If so, this is my conundrum... My top and subs are processed by the manufacturer's processor (Yorkville), so I am stuck with single attack, etc settings for tops and subs.  Any settings recommendations?

thanks
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 11:29:39 am »

I'm no expert. & I don't usually use the board or input limiters only output limiters.

But I'd say set the mixer limiter to RMS and the Venu360 INPUT limiting to peak & the Venu360 output limiter to Thermal.

You'd be best to limit the passbands so you can set attack/release times accordingly.

For the main RMS limiter - set to long attack/release times (say 100ms (maybe even .5 or 1s attack) & 2x-8x release) set the level to limit the entire system to whatever SPL you don't want the system going pass (whether for hearing protection or thermal transducer protection) (long term thermal limit of HF/MF drivers).

For the main peak limiter - set to uber short attack & med release (20uS & 5ms) & set at a level that protects the HF driver from blowing itself up (peak voltage).

For the pass-bands, (thermal limiter) limit to the 1/4 power of RMS (program) power of the driver. Use 3s & 8s (attack & release) for the subs.

etc.

http://www.brightonsoundsystem.co.uk/calculator/powersoft-k10-limiter.php
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David Allred

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 12:00:17 pm »

I'm no expert. & I don't usually use the board or input limiters only output limiters.

But I'd say set the mixer limiter to RMS and the Venu360 INPUT limiting to peak & the Venu360 output limiter to Thermal.

You'd be best to limit the passbands so you can set attack/release times accordingly.

For the main RMS limiter - set to long attack/release times (say 100ms (maybe even .5 or 1s attack) & 2x-8x release) set the level to limit the entire system to whatever SPL you don't want the system going pass (whether for hearing protection or thermal transducer protection) (long term thermal limit of HF/MF drivers).

For the main peak limiter - set to uber short attack & med release (20uS & 5ms) & set at a level that protects the HF driver from blowing itself up (peak voltage).

For the pass-bands, (thermal limiter) limit to the 1/4 power of RMS (program) power of the driver. Use 3s & 8s (attack & release) for the subs.

etc.

http://www.brightonsoundsystem.co.uk/calculator/powersoft-k10-limiter.php

Thanks, I hadn't considered using the compressor on the pre-x-over side in the 360 as a limiter.  That is just like using the one on the MR18 output, except (I assume) peak only.  Nice suggestion.
Unfortunately, I have made a conscious decision to use the Yorkville processor to do the band-pass work, so having individual limiters for them is not in the cards.

That means I can have 3 type of limiting :
MR18 main comp - RMS or Peak
360 input comp - Peak
360 output Limiter - RMS or Peak

So, if the subs and highs are sharing limiters... any thoughts?
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 12:08:19 pm »

Thanks, I hadn't considered using the compressor on the pre-x-over side in the 360 as a limiter.  That is just like using the one on the MR18 output, except (I assume) peak only.  Nice suggestion.
Unfortunately, I have made a conscious decision to use the Yorkville processor to do the band-pass work, so having individual limiters for them is not in the cards.

That means I can have 3 type of limiting :
MR18 main comp - RMS or Peak
360 input comp - Peak
360 output Limiter - RMS or Peak

So, if the subs and highs are sharing limiters... any thoughts?

Band limited compressors/limiters would work, like Linea Research's VX audio output limiters. But those are out as the Venue360 doesn't have that.

What assumptions or facts do we know about the Yorkville processor? Is it doing any limiting at all?
What music do you typically do? I'd say spectral content would change our 'protection' methods.

EDM = thermally limit -3dB below whichever component is the weakest link
Rock = peak limit -3dB below whichever component is the weakest link

You can create thermal limiters from rms limiters by measuring the voltage and doing 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 power calculations.
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David Allred

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 01:19:47 pm »

Band limited compressors/limiters would work, like Linea Research's VX audio output limiters. But those are out as the Venue360 doesn't have that.

What assumptions or facts do we know about the Yorkville processor? Is it doing any limiting at all?
What music do you typically do? I'd say spectral content would change our 'protection' methods.

EDM = thermally limit -3dB below whichever component is the weakest link
Rock = peak limit -3dB below whichever component is the weakest link

You can create thermal limiters from rms limiters by measuring the voltage and doing 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 power calculations.

Sorry.  The Yorkville processor does the band passes and corrective & protective EQ.  No limiting.

The main situation that is a threat is during DJ-ing for HS age kids.  So mostly rap and pop.  EDM has not made itself popular where I am yet.  Everything else is talking head, amateur talent (no bands) etc.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 02:23:02 pm »

Sorry.  The Yorkville processor does the band passes and corrective & protective EQ.  No limiting.

The main situation that is a threat is during DJ-ing for HS age kids.  So mostly rap and pop.  EDM has not made itself popular where I am yet.  Everything else is talking head, amateur talent (no bands) etc.

Thanks for the feedback.

Ahh okay.

So if it were me. Page 53/54 of the venu360 manual detail the limiting/gain staging section. [it's fairly lacking IMO, and I've grown to hate dbx's when real processing isn't too far away in price.]

After gainstage & all processing setup is done. I'd do what Ivan taught me.

Disconnect the speakers. Calculate the 1/3 power voltage for the average impedance for the sub amp output.

Then play a ~60hz sinewave into the input. Grab a voltmeter & measure the amp output. Raise the input until the output voltage is +10v or so above whatever you need to limit to.

Turn down the limiter threshold until it brings the voltage down to the calculated voltage limit.

Play some music, season overeasy to taste (~5)
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Mike Monte

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 02:31:33 pm »

Sorry.  The Yorkville processor does the band passes and corrective & protective EQ.  No limiting.

The main situation that is a threat is during DJ-ing for HS age kids.  So mostly rap and pop.  EDM has not made itself popular where I am yet.  Everything else is talking head, amateur talent (no bands) etc.

Thanks for the feedback.

What Yorkville processor are you using?? 
I use TX processors for my TX3/4/8/9s rigs (the TX processors have limiters built in)
I also use e152p and e10p processors (with e152/e10 cabs) that have no limiting....

In the case of the e10p/e152p processors do not send more to the cabs than they are rated for....
 

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David Allred

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2018, 02:50:44 pm »

What Yorkville processor are you using?? 
I use TX processors for my TX3/4/8/9s rigs (the TX processors have limiters built in)
I also use e152p and e10p processors (with e152/e10 cabs) that have no limiting....

In the case of the e10p/e152p processors do not send more to the cabs than they are rated for....

EP1215 for passive use.  Am I missing something here?
Yeah, the TX series sense and adapt, I believe. 
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David Allred

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Re: System limiters in series
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2018, 03:04:19 pm »

Ahh okay.


 Calculate the 1/3 power voltage for the average impedance for the sub amp output.



Can you expound on this? 

725w 20-20k (775w 1k) into 8 ohms (sub nominal, 600/1200/2400)
Amp volt data from a spreadsheet I acquired a few years back:
75 v rms
111 v peak

Sub:
63v/98v/126v
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Nathan Riddle

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:35:52 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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