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Author Topic: another speaker question  (Read 12032 times)

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2018, 12:51:18 AM »

...eliminate some large base nodes...

Eliminate bass nodes by moving the speakers apart? I don't think that guy knows how physics works, you will definitely get nodes in the lower frequencies by moving the speakers further apart, I entirely agree with a centre cluster or 2 flown right next to each other depending on coverage needs, you want to keep them pretty close to each other if you want to avoid bass nodes.

Regarding sound image, I don't see how you can wonder about L-R imaging when the sound source is coming from the ceiling and the pastor is just above eye level, if you are truly worried about the sound image then you would need to look at lip fills as well and in that case you budget it blown.

Why do they want to go with passive speakers over active speaker? It sounds like they are trying to save a buck on attempt 3 and that will only bring about attempt 4 and probably even 5 and 6 as well, right now unless you are an amazing engineer with a lot of tools at your disposal passive speakers make no sense compared to active speakers, how to they plan to protect those passive speakers from both operators and that Behringer amp?

I honestly feel that you need to have a proper heart to heart with the church about doing things properly, go do some research as well, there are some biblical principles related to stewardship that will help drive the point across, specially when you bring in the fact that it will be significantly cheaper in the long term to do things correctly now. If they want to go passive then make sure you quote them for an amp with some really good DSP or a really good external DSP to handle limiting and such, throw in a quote for an adequate active speaker system and maybe they will see reason.

I would honestly recommend that you design a proper system, get the quotes needed to install it, make a really nice 3D model as well as SPL and frequency response plots and sell them a vision not just having them try to patch together something that will be broken in a year or 2.
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Ken Webster

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2018, 06:17:20 PM »

Why do they want to go with passive speakers over active speaker? It sounds like they are trying to save a buck on attempt 3 and that will only bring about attempt 4 and probably even 5 and 6 as well, right now unless you are an amazing engineer with a lot of tools at your disposal passive speakers make no sense compared to active speakers, how to they plan to protect those passive speakers from both operators and that Behringer amp?

I have been following this discussion for a while.  Could you please explain how amps built into enclosures protect speakers any more than having amp separates?  This given that in both cases limiters, FB eliminators and overload devices can be deployed.  Also in both cases, it falls on sound staff to avoid clipping, feedback and extreme SPL.  I don't understand the need to protect a equipment from trained and approved staff, that's why they are there after all.

Thanks,
Ken
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 07:36:26 PM by Ken Webster »
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Don T. Williams

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2018, 10:49:36 PM »

I have been following this discussion for a while.  Could you please explain how amps built into enclosures protect speakers any more than having amp separates?  This given that in both cases limiters, FB eliminators and overload devices can be deployed.  Also in both cases, it falls on sound staff to avoid clipping, feedback and extreme SPL.  I don't understand the need to protect a equipment from trained and approved staff, that's why they are there after all.

Thanks,
Ken
The more things change, the more they stay the same.  Actually either "active" self powered speakers or passive loudspeakers with amplifiers with DSP designed specifically for those loudspeakers can provide very good protection.  In a fixed installation with flown loudspeakers, it can be very difficult to adjust those built in amps or even see the protection circuits from some mixing positions.  In these situations, the processing amp is much more accessible (but probably not visible).  For more simple "speaker on a stick" applications and even one-off events, I find active self powered speakers to be easier.  I admit there may be little difference in time or effort needed.  It's just my preferred work style.

There are different "classes" for each of these categories.  Powered speakers may have just simple amps with basic cross-overs built in, no protective DSP processing, and sell for less than $300.00.  What I refer to as true active loudspeakers have processing that constantly measures and receives feed-back from the drivers to maintain sound quality and reliability.  Their cost and performance is vastly different. 

There is a wide range of levels in between.  The same can be true with passive loudspeakers and matching DSP processing power amplifiers.  For a given price range, I think the active speaker has a value edge, but again there are so many choices this isn't universal.  If I have to buy a $3,500.00 DSP amp to correctly run a pair of $750.00 passive speakers, is that cost effective compared to a pair of $850.00 active speakers?  I think you can see the dilemma!

I train my staff, but we have stage hands and volunteer crew at many events.  Some help is worse than no help at all sometimes!  I also rent equipment out.  If I had to have staff set up and operate the gear at all those small events, almost no one could afford to rent from me.  Idiot-proof easy to use gear is an absolute necessity.  And what about the all volunteer HOW crew that may change from service to service?  Do you think those people are always fully trained and approved?

I'm just trying to show you more of the picture.  There is a place for all of this gear.  I wish every user was a trained pro and everyone could afford "A" level touring gear.  How does a wedding DJ doing 8 events a year afford that level of gear?
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2018, 05:09:21 AM »

I have been following this discussion for a while.  Could you please explain how amps built into enclosures protect speakers any more than having amp separates?  This given that in both cases limiters, FB eliminators and overload devices can be deployed.  Also in both cases, it falls on sound staff to avoid clipping, feedback and extreme SPL.  I don't understand the need to protect a equipment from trained and approved staff, that's why they are there after all.

Thanks,
Ken

I believe Don answered the question quite well but let me put it this way. A passive speaker powered by an amp with no DSP(which is likely what is going to end up installed in this church) then by far you are getting a better product in the powered speaker.

Likewise a lot of modern powered speakers have FIR filtering to correct phase response as well as correct limiting both for long term heat protection and short term peak protection.

If you are buying a D&B or Danley or L'Acoustics or any similar system where there is manufacturer stipulations for how to process it that is "passive" then sure there is no difference but for most small churches that will end up installing some cheap speakers with a plain old amp with likely no DSP at all go active, you will very likely have a better long term solution in a powered speaker.
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Robert Weaver

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2018, 05:54:13 PM »

I believe Don answered the question quite well but let me put it this way. A passive speaker powered by an amp with no DSP(which is likely what is going to end up installed in this church) then by far you are getting a better product in the powered speaker.

Likewise a lot of modern powered speakers have FIR filtering to correct phase response as well as correct limiting both for long term heat protection and short term peak protection.

If you are buying a D&B or Danley or L'Acoustics or any similar system where there is manufacturer stipulations for how to process it that is "passive" then sure there is no difference but for most small churches that will end up installing some cheap speakers with a plain old amp with likely no DSP at all go active, you will very likely have a better long term solution in a powered speaker.

Some of these powered speakers have networking capability to access the settings remotely.  You just have to run electrical and xlr wire to the speakers.
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Don T. Williams

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2018, 12:47:55 PM »

Some of these powered speakers have networking capability to access the settings remotely.  You just have to run electrical and xlr wire to the speakers.

Robert you are correct about the networking, but I'm only aware of one brand (Line 6) that combines audio and networking on the same XLR line.  In this case it only works with their M20d mixer.  It is pretty slick in it's operation, but also limited with only 12 mic inputs and 4 monitor sends.

Many other speaker systems use CAT5/6 networking and have varying monitor and control capabilities available remotely. These make active self-powered speaker more and more attractive for fixed installations, but so does the matching amp with processing/matching passive speaker combination.  In the end, a careful choice can result in very good reliable audio. 
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Ken Cross

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 10:39:42 PM »

First off I'd like to offer a hearty and heartfelt thank you to all who have responded.

This church does have a DSP for the input into the main amp as well as the subs. We know a Behranger amp is poor, but how poor I don't know because the junk speakers installed are blown. I suspect the lack of a high pass filter on the amp may be the culprit. Having said that the DSP should be able to help there, but I don't even know what model they are. I need to get back over there, but I'm going to be out of town for the next 3 weeks.

As to the person who recommended the speaker configuration, He is from CCI communications. This is a company well known for engineering large venues. I was asking about the speaker configuration because I don't think I've ever listened in a sanctuary set up in that way (speakers center, left and right aligned with the center of each row of seating.) The idea is to put bass nodes in the aisles. He recommended feeding a new amp with a Driverack 260. (I've used these and they certainly aren't intuitive, mainly I think for documentation)

He also provided an alternate idea using two powered speakers mounted as a cluster (MAU-CCD-live12), but access for adjustments is almost out of the question in this case which makes this a hard sell.

In terms of the operator, typical of churches in our area is a volunteer who is graciously sharing his time but is certainly not a professional. Part of what I do is to provide some training in such situations. In these cases, it's critical that operating the equipment is fairly easy and forgiving. That's not to say he's a fool because he certainly isn't.

So please continue to speak up if you have something that might help. I'm here because I too always have more to learn.

Ken
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2018, 03:31:05 PM »

I'm wondering what that would do to the apparent presenter position as the actual presenter would be in the center of the room and the sound source would be way off center.

Ken

I feel like we never really answered this.

If they go where I think they're going (spread apart, but not too far apart), then there will be some small imaging issues, but nothing major as they should still focus you towards the center.

Now if there is 3x speakers pointing straight out, then yeah that's silly.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2018, 03:36:06 PM »

First off I'd like to offer a hearty and heartfelt thank you to all who have responded.

This church does have a DSP for the input into the main amp as well as the subs. We know a Behranger amp is poor, but how poor I don't know because the junk speakers installed are blown. I suspect the lack of a high pass filter on the amp may be the culprit. Having said that the DSP should be able to help there, but I don't even know what model they are. I need to get back over there, but I'm going to be out of town for the next 3 weeks.

As to the person who recommended the speaker configuration, He is from CCI communications. This is a company well known for engineering large venues. I was asking about the speaker configuration because I don't think I've ever listened in a sanctuary set up in that way (speakers center, left and right aligned with the center of each row of seating.) The idea is to put bass nodes in the aisles. He recommended feeding a new amp with a Driverack 260. (I've used these and they certainly aren't intuitive, mainly I think for documentation)

He also provided an alternate idea using two powered speakers mounted as a cluster (MAU-CCD-live12), but access for adjustments is almost out of the question in this case which makes this a hard sell.

In terms of the operator, typical of churches in our area is a volunteer who is graciously sharing his time but is certainly not a professional. Part of what I do is to provide some training in such situations. In these cases, it's critical that operating the equipment is fairly easy and forgiving. That's not to say he's a fool because he certainly isn't.

So please continue to speak up if you have something that might help. I'm here because I too always have more to learn.

Ken

Ask for an EASE plot(s) (with phase turned on). Post it up here. Or if you want to be a little 'nicer' to them, PM it to me/whoever wants it.
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: another speaker question
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2018, 03:16:30 AM »

As to the person who recommended the speaker configuration, He is from CCI communications. This is a company well known for engineering large venues. I was asking about the speaker configuration because I don't think I've ever listened in a sanctuary set up in that way (speakers center, left and right aligned with the center of each row of seating.) The idea is to put bass nodes in the aisles. He recommended feeding a new amp with a Driverack 260. (I've used these and they certainly aren't intuitive, mainly I think for documentation)

Those nodes change completely based on frequency honestly if that is something your worried about then go with the Martin CCDLives setup.

This is a fixed install, once it's installed and is tuned you shouldn't F*ck with it so not being able to access the setting really shouldn't bother you. IMHO a system should be tuned flat and any "voicing" you want on the speakers should be done at the FOH console's outputs.

Again with the user friendly aspect of a system design, the console is a very important consideration, the installed sound system should be inaccessible apart from having an on and off switch, more so when volunteers are using the system.

The amount of times I have "fixed" sound systems by turning off absurd EQ set by volunteers on the processor's inputs is absurd.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: another speaker question
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2018, 03:16:30 AM »


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