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[Isaac South]

Go back and re-read Mac's comment.  He said nothing to contradict you - he was explaining WHY.

In a nutshell, the "make-up" gain is just *gain*.  It's there all the time; the functioning is not linked to the amount of compression being applied nor is it disabled when not in compression.

My fault - I think I misunderstood.  So, the gain increases the gain no matter what's happening...compression or no compression.  It's just like having another gain knob....got it.

So why not just use the regular gain on my board?  How is this gain different? 

[Geert Friedhof]

My fault - I think I misunderstood.  So, the gain increases the gain no matter what's happening...compression or no compression.  It's just like having another gain knob....got it.

So why not just use the regular gain on my board?  How is this gain different?

That gain has the full dynamic, so it will overload (clip, red lights, not good) faster.

Gain staging:

Gain > Compressor > Makup Gain > Fader

PS: Note that the gain will affect your compression: more gain=more compression, and will affect your monitor settings. When you need more signal at the fader, use the make up gain for more output signal. This won't affect those two.

[Scott Holtzman]

My fault - I think I misunderstood.  So, the gain increases the gain no matter what's happening...compression or no compression.  It's just like having another gain knob....got it.

So why not just use the regular gain on my board?  How is this gain different?

Gain is gain.  Did you see my note on gain staging and why makeup gain exists?  Geert's signal flow is useful too.



 

[Tim McCulloch]

My fault - I think I misunderstood.  So, the gain increases the gain no matter what's happening...compression or no compression.  It's just like having another gain knob....got it.

So why not just use the regular gain on my board?  How is this gain different?

Because the "gain"s have different functions in the signal chain we can have more of them! 

Your console's input gain (trim, whatever) exists to put the electrical signal at the input at a level the circuitry can best operate in (the "linear range").  That means sending the signal to internal or external processing, having adequate levels to send to L&R, aux/monitor/foldback/recording mixes, etc.  All without the presence of red lights and ideally around -18DBFS for digital and 0dBVU for analog.

The compressor's "make up" gain got its semi-accurate name from the non-PA uses of compressors - recording, broadcast, communications.  If you compress the peaks down to the "average", you now need to bring up the level to get it to match the previous peak level, and for non-PA use this typically only affects the perceived noise floor of the input or mix being compressed.  But that gain is always there and for those other uses doesn't matter but in a PA system (and especially if in a channel insert ahead of stage monitor sends) it does.  EX- If you've got an input that's routinely -6dB into reduction and you raise the "make up gain" +6dB to compensate, everything will *acoustically* stay the same.  When the signal drops below threshold and the compressor is no longer compressing, you have all the channel/mix gain PLUS that 6dB of make up gain added in and possibly (likely) have feedback.

[Isaac South]

Because the "gain"s have different functions in the signal chain we can have more of them! 

Your console's input gain (trim, whatever) exists to put the electrical signal at the input at a level the circuitry can best operate in (the "linear range").  That means sending the signal to internal or external processing, having adequate levels to send to L&R, aux/monitor/foldback/recording mixes, etc.  All without the presence of red lights and ideally around -18DBFS for digital and 0dBVU for analog.

The compressor's "make up" gain got its semi-accurate name from the non-PA uses of compressors - recording, broadcast, communications.  If you compress the peaks down to the "average", you now need to bring up the level to get it to match the previous peak level, and for non-PA use this typically only affects the perceived noise floor of the input or mix being compressed.  But that gain is always there and for those other uses doesn't matter but in a PA system (and especially if in a channel insert ahead of stage monitor sends) it does.  EX- If you've got an input that's routinely -6dB into reduction and you raise the "make up gain" +6dB to compensate, everything will *acoustically* stay the same.  When the signal drops below threshold and the compressor is no longer compressing, you have all the channel/mix gain PLUS that 6dB of make up gain added in and possibly (likely) have feedback.

I think I'm starting to understand.  The only part I don't like is that the compression gain adds gain even when it's not compressing.  That's confusing to me because my preacher is peaking with the gain set where it is BEFORE I even turn the compressor on.  Why would I want to turn the compressor on and add more gain when not in compression?

But then, when it does compress, I need the gain.

Does this makes sense?

[Tim McCulloch]

I think I'm starting to understand.  The only part I don't like is that the compression gain adds gain even when it's not compressing.  That's confusing to me because my preacher is peaking with the gain set where it is BEFORE I even turn the compressor on.  Why would I want to turn the compressor on and add more gain when not in compression?

But then, when it does compress, I need the gain.

Does this makes sense?

I explained WHY compression has additional gain *available*.  YOU are not required to use that gain, just set it to 0.  Now also understand that the compressor is not a "brick wall limiter."  So long as the input signal continues to rise above threshold the output of the compressor will also rise, but not in a linear way as that is what is determined by the RATIO control.  At 4:1, the output of the compressor will go up 1dB for every 4dB the input signal exceeds threshold.

You have 2 issues but the primary one is that the preacher's input is clipping.  That's easy.  Turn it the f*** down until the LOUDEST THING TO COME OUT OF HIS MOUTH hits -12DBFS or +4dBVU.  This fixes the input channel clipping.  IF the red light is still flashing, turn it down some more.

The second issue is that the dynamic range of the preacher's voice is so wide that it's too loud when he screams and too quite when he whispers?  That's what compressors are for - they do not fix "peaking" channels" as input level is a separate thing that in the signal path, is *before* the compressor.

[Geert Friedhof]

Isaac, how many times have you been told to turn the gain down until the red light doesn't flash anymore?

I lost count.

Just do it, and go from there. Step by step.

[John Roberts {JR}]

My fault - I think I misunderstood.  So, the gain increases the gain no matter what's happening...compression or no compression.  It's just like having another gain knob....got it.

So why not just use the regular gain on my board?  How is this gain different?

Since typical above threshold compressors reduce gain above threshold, make up gain is often added inside the compressor path to restore nominal loudness vs the uncompressed signal.

JR

[Stephen Swaffer]

I find it interesting we knock newbies for asking silly questions-in this case his 4th sentence tells us he is using a QU-32?

I am using a QU-32 as well.  One thing that has helped me learn how compression works is using an "unused" mix and PFLing to it.  In my case, I have the luxury of someone else actually mxing the service-but it has allowed me to experiment with how compression affects various program material without subjecting the congregation to my experimentation.  I find taking any parameter to an extreme helps me hear and understand how it affects what is happening-tweaking the mix I am playing with with an iPad keeps me out of the other guy's way.  While we have to be careful not to mix with level meters, the graphics on the QU do a decent job of letting you see when compression kicks in and how it affects the outgoing signal.

[Isaac South]

Sorry, guys.  My intent is not to ignore what you're saying.  I've even made my own word document based on this thread and I've been taking notes for later reference.  I appreciate all of your help.

The preacher is not peaking any more.  As I said in a previous post, we've turned down the wireless receiver gain, and the gain on my mixer, and we've solved that.

I was merely using that to prove the validity of my question.  Why would I want an additional gain?  That's all I was trying to do.

But never mind.  Maybe that was too novice of a question.  haha. 

Thank you all again for your help.  Your wealth of knowledge is an amazing help to me here in my small-town church.

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