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Author Topic: Aux fed subs and break music  (Read 4145 times)

Craig Hauber

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2018, 02:34:24 pm »

Question all, I've been trying to wrap my head about this and can't figure it out. 

If you run aux fed subs, how can you get your set break music to sound right?  I'm sending the kick to my subs for the show, but then, for the break music, I can't just send that channel to the subs, as I will not get any of the full range.  And if I send that channel to L/R, I won't get any low end.  Is there something simple I'm missing?  I'm using a Midas M32. 

Side note, the last arena show I went to they were using a Midas Pro 2, and I saw the engineer adjust what I think was the low pass filter during the break music and heard the subs level go up, but I could be wrong.  (I didn't have the best view as I standing off to the side of FOH.)  Maybe they weren't using aux subs though.  I am just trying to learn how to get a great sound for the live show, but still have decent sounding break music without having to constantly adjust the EQ for break music.

With regards to the OP,
I've always liked a bit of contrast between "break" music and the actual performance. 
-Don't make it sound all tinny and weak, but do have it a bit less "full" sounding than your band mix. 
I also use it as a time to reduce the SPL and allow everyone's ears to adjust back to normal a bit (for loud bands in small bars) -Also is a good time for the bar to make money so obliterating the patrons trying to order drinks with concert-level SPL isn't helpful (something that I've fought with for years when the club DJ provides the break music)

Another consideration is that for a "subs-on-aux" type rig I have had the best results with a relatively full-range (but tight) PA that still sounds good without any of the subs active.  Then using the subs as an effect on inputs that generate material in that range. 
If you find yourself adding sub-aux to inputs that aren't considered bass-range just to make them sound natural then your PA is inadequate or crossed-over too high. 
In that situation I recommend just running all your PA with subs included as a standard left/right 3 or 4-way (properly aligned using DSP system processing) and then using a dbx120 or Maxxbass type effect on an aux for LF effects
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John L Nobile

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2018, 02:40:54 pm »

If you're not comfortable with the routing on that board, may I suggest that you not do aux subs and just take L/R out for gigs and play with the routing when you have some downtime. Look at some online video help. Here's one example of many

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-TisL8oQ0

Honestly, not being familiar with how the routing works on a board can lead to no sound or blowing speakers. And everything in between.
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2018, 02:59:45 pm »

With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.

I may have to play around with this, as several people have mentioned this.  I have based my 110 Hz crossover point on information from the manufacturer as well as many user who have the same subs.  They actually also recommend that we put a small PEQ on at 100 Hz and cut about 2.5 dB, which I do in my DSP.
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2018, 03:37:24 pm »

If you're not comfortable with the routing on that board, may I suggest that you not do aux subs and just take L/R out for gigs and play with the routing when you have some downtime.
John, this is exactly what I'm doing now, exploring these potential options on my downtime.  That's why I'm asking questions.  To learn.

I have watched many videos on the M32, both prior to purchasing and since.  My last board was a PreSonus 16.4.2. the M32 is a different animal.  There are many videos and resources available, including people in this forum.

Honestly, not being familiar with how the routing works on a board can lead to no sound or blowing speakers. And everything in between.
In some cases, yes.  However, in this example, I disagree.  If you read my other posts, you would know that I use external DSP.  I have the proper settings in the DSP for crossovers and limiters.  You could take any desk/mixer, plug it into my system, and off we go, no need to configure any crossovers in the desk/mixer.  Could you boost frequencies and/or clip a signal and damage the gear, yes, absolutely, someone drops a live mic, yep.  No crossover can protect from those situations.  But that is not due to routing when you are using an external DSP.  Now, if I were to rely solely on the built in DSP in the M32, then yes, you would be correct.  Am I missing something? 

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2018, 03:40:27 pm »

With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.

Doubtful on a correctly configured and deployed system.  I find myself high passing male vocals around 140Hz with the steep HPF on the Avid Profile/SC48, and closer to 200Hz on a Yammy M7.  SM-58, in close...

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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2018, 03:47:54 pm »

Another consideration is that for a "subs-on-aux" type rig I have had the best results with a relatively full-range (but tight) PA that still sounds good without any of the subs active.  Then using the subs as an effect on inputs that generate material in that range. 
If you find yourself adding sub-aux to inputs that aren't considered bass-range just to make them sound natural then your PA is inadequate or crossed-over too high. 
In that situation I recommend just running all your PA with subs included as a standard left/right 3 or 4-way (properly aligned using DSP system processing) and then using a dbx120 or Maxxbass type effect on an aux for LF effects

Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 03:51:50 pm »

Doubtful on a correctly configured and deployed system.  I find myself high passing male vocals around 140Hz with the steep HPF on the Avid Profile/SC48, and closer to 200Hz on a Yammy M7.  SM-58, in close...

This. Snare, high toms, and guitars also do not need to get to the subs.

Mac
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William Schnake

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 04:09:54 pm »

Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?

Matt, I can't say what others do, but we always run all of the subs on an aux to control the amount of signal going to them.  As far as what I put in the Aux sub mix: Kick, Floor Tom (if needed), Bass Guitar, Keys (if needed), Playback.  That's it, nothing else unless we get something that needs more low end.  Our subs cross-over at 98 Hz.

Bill
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Jonathan Betts

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 04:11:53 pm »

This. Snare, high toms, and guitars also do not need to get to the subs.

Mac

I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Opís case here. I didnít mean for it to be a generalization.
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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Aux fed subs and break music
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 04:20:32 pm »

I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Opís case here. I didnít mean for it to be a generalization.

All generalizations are false.  ;D
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