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Author Topic: Audix mic on toms  (Read 6142 times)

Mark Schneider

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Audix mic on toms
« on: January 22, 2018, 11:01:31 AM »

I will be doing some recording of a large drum kit, and have the Audix D series mics to use for it.  I have never used Audix mics on toms before and need advice, since I won't have much time to play around and experiment.

I see recommendations that the D2 is best on rack toms, and D4 on floor toms.  The drum kit being recorded has 9 total toms (8" to 15" rack toms, 16" & 18" floor toms).  I've got enough of both D2's and D4's at my disposal to use all of one or the other if I choose, or a combination.

The only difference I can ascertain is that the D4 has an extended low frequency response from the D2.  If I have enough D4's for the full kit, is it better to use those on all the toms, even the small ones?  Or is there something the D2 will provide that is better on small and mid toms than the D4 would?

My thought is to use the D4's on all the toms since I have enough, unless there is compelling reason to use the D2's on smaller toms.  Any thoughts?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2018, 11:39:43 AM »

I will be doing some recording of a large drum kit, and have the Audix D series mics to use for it.  I have never used Audix mics on toms before and need advice, since I won't have much time to play around and experiment.

I see recommendations that the D2 is best on rack toms, and D4 on floor toms.  The drum kit being recorded has 9 total toms (8" to 15" rack toms, 16" & 18" floor toms).  I've got enough of both D2's and D4's at my disposal to use all of one or the other if I choose, or a combination.

The only difference I can ascertain is that the D4 has an extended low frequency response from the D2.  If I have enough D4's for the full kit, is it better to use those on all the toms, even the small ones?  Or is there something the D2 will provide that is better on small and mid toms than the D4 would?

My thought is to use the D4's on all the toms since I have enough, unless there is compelling reason to use the D2's on smaller toms.  Any thoughts?

I'd suggest asking this question in the RecPit recording forum.
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Mark Schneider

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2018, 12:24:16 PM »

I'd suggest asking this question in the RecPit recording forum.

Yes, I also have plans to use them in a live situation, and failed to note that in my original post.  Same questions apply for that as well.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2018, 12:54:15 PM »

Well I'd suggest experimenting in advance with a couple of different toms, put a D2 and D4 on each and record them straight up on separate tracks.  Listen back and see what you think.

It doesn't matter so much that it's not the big kit you'll record later, you're listening for the difference in mics.

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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2018, 01:36:26 PM »

I have seen the hard rock guys use the D6 on all the toms. I have to say, it worked for the genre/band.


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William Schnake

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2018, 03:07:36 PM »

The only difference I can ascertain is that the D4 has an extended low frequency response from the D2.  If I have enough D4's for the full kit, is it better to use those on all the toms, even the small ones?  Or is there something the D2 will provide that is better on small and mid toms than the D4 would?

My thought is to use the D4's on all the toms since I have enough, unless there is compelling reason to use the D2's on smaller toms.  Any thoughts?

Mark, we use D2/D4 on toms all the time without any problems.  When we are doing a 'heavy' drummer, we put the mic about 1 1/2" from the head if it is a 'Normal' we generally have the mic 1" from the head.  It is hard to overload either the D2 or D4.  You shouldn't have problems using all D4s if that is what you want to do.

Bill

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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2018, 03:22:05 PM »

I use D2/D4 combo on toms also and get great results - never any problems and really easy to EQ. I stick to the D2 for rack tom and D4 for floor - However, the D4 used to be the  kick mic in the Audix D series till the D6 came out. I have used the D4 on kick and I like it - might also be worth a try.
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Mark Schneider

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2018, 05:54:28 PM »

Let me better define my question:  Assuming I have enough D4's to use on all the toms (including small and mid size rack toms), why would someone choose to use D2's on the smaller and mid size toms?  Is there something the D2 has that would make them sound better than the D4? 

I'm guessing since the D2 has less low frequency capability than the D4, the lows aren't needed on small and mid size rack toms?  Or is there some other audio quality that the D2 has over the D4 that would make the preferable on those size toms?  Or would the D4 really be the better choice on everything?
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Don T. Williams

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2018, 06:47:50 PM »

Let me better define my question:  Assuming I have enough D4's to use on all the toms (including small and mid size rack toms), why would someone choose to use D2's on the smaller and mid size toms?  Is there something the D2 has that would make them sound better than the D4? 

I'm guessing since the D2 has less low frequency capability than the D4, the lows aren't needed on small and mid size rack toms?  Or is there some other audio quality that the D2 has over the D4 that would make the preferable on those size toms?  Or would the D4 really be the better choice on everything?

The two mics are "voiced" a little differently, but using a D4 everywhere will probably work.  The kit and how it tuned and played really makes more of a difference in mic choice.  Some mics just seem to match up better to some drums. By that I mean that less (or no) Eq is needed to get the sound you are looking for.  And, that sound may be different for each engineer!  It's not just the mics, not just the drums, not just the drummer, and not just the engineer, it's all of the above.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2018, 07:07:52 PM »

The two mics are "voiced" a little differently, but using a D4 everywhere will probably work.  The kit and how it tuned and played really makes more of a difference in mic choice.  Some mics just seem to match up better to some drums. By that I mean that less (or no) Eq is needed to get the sound you are looking for.  And, that sound may be different for each engineer!  It's not just the mics, not just the drums, not just the drummer, and not just the engineer, it's all of the above.

If you had told me this 5 years ago I would not have understood what you meant.  Even with the experience or running church sound and theater, live sound was completely different.  I never would have been able to make the transition if it weren't for you folks.

What I would share with you is that you establish your kit of drum mics.  I have Sennheiser e604, e904 Audix D2, D4, Shure Beta 98's, Beta 57's and even some PGA's and Audio Technica.  Each one is different.  Learning your mics and how they pair with different instruments and players is key.  I choose from my palette what matches the scenario.  If we do a band regularly I send out what works best for them.

Our "go to" mic is the e604.  Mainly for ease of deployment and general agreeability. 

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Don T. Williams

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 07:19:08 PM »


Our "go to" mic is the e604.  Mainly for ease of deployment and general agreeability.
[/quote]

Mine too!  Drummers can beat the heck out of them and it doesn't seem to hurt them - and they sound good on most drums.  Super easy to attach and remove and don't scratch drum hardware.
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Mal Brown

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 11:31:12 PM »

E604 ... unless I absolutely have to use something else... (rider). Or fat wooden hooped Jazz kit.
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Brian Adams

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2018, 12:02:29 AM »

I've had people accidentally switch around the D2 and D4 and put the D2 on floor and the D4 on rack. I've also tried D4's on rack toms, but I don't think I've intentionally put a D2 on a floor tom.

The end result was that for some reason I don't like the D4 on rack toms, and I don't like the D2 on floor toms. There's just something about it that doesn't work for me. So I make sure that D2's are on rack toms and D4's are on floor toms.

I have lots of D2's and D4's, and they're great, but I find I'm using my e904's more than anything since I got them. I've used e604's plenty, but I don't own any. The Sennheiser mount is a lot easier to deal with, especially in a festival situation. And no one has trouble figuring out how to get a 604 off the rim, but I have plenty enough broken Audix clips to prove that not everyone knows how to take them off.

The Audix mounts do offer some flexibility though, because sometimes a 604 just won't fit.
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scottstephens

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 09:23:36 AM »

Mark,

  Lots of good comments here. But what Don said about how the drums are tuned is going to make the most difference.  The other day we were using 604's on a Yammy kit with the toms tuned high; think the Eagles sound. And I didn't really like the sound were we getting; I'm not sure why, maybe I was just having "one of those days". But we switched to EV 468's and the toms "opened up".  The Ev's are more sensitive and have top end than the 604's.
  So, play around with the kit and the mics. Is the D4 more or less sensitive than the D2? No one is going to gripe about all D4's or all D2's, ok, not usually. You have a neat opportunity here to play and learn.

Have fun.

Scott
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 06:15:22 PM »

I would think that if the rack (top) toms are tuned higher and open and the drummer is looking for that higher pitch and sustain, then the D2s would be the choice.  If they have damped heads and low tuning, then they're trying to get a deeper sound than the drum was made for, and the extra girth of the D4 might make them happier.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2018, 11:00:27 AM »

This is question for the recording peeps. Definitely.

As far as live reinforcement goes, the transfer function/ accuracy/tonality of any tom mic(s) is waaaaaaay down the list of concerns vs. the transfer function(and its own particular limits) of the entire deployed rig.

I would rather spend minimal time with e604/clips on all toms+snare, vs lots o'time w/finicky 421s+D2s+57+stands+ whatever. No mic will fix a bad drum. SR is an accurate transfer first. Creative tonal decisions are pre-gig.

GOOD SOUND FAST! is my mantra. Big picture.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 11:25:51 AM by Jim McKeveny »
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2018, 11:56:01 AM »

Live is so very different - I agree it is all about speed and efficiency.
These days in the bars, I often use just kick and overhead on the one band - drummer has a nicely balanced kit -snare, toms and cymbals and the 2 mics work great. I was using a LDC for overhead but I got too much bleed from the room so I now use the AT 4041 and get great results - no need for even a snare mic. Getting the overhead positioned just right does the job.
The other band the drummer sets up his own mics - 5 in total so I don't have to worry about that. He has a mis-match of mics but all decent quality.
Recording is a totally different animal and the last recording I did, we took all day just getting the drum mics where we wanted them - recording, then repositioning, then recording, then switching mics,  etc etc. We also changed them around from song to song.
Regarding the OP question regarding the D2 and the D4, it really is a matter of taste. Experimenting, if you have the time, can sometimes bring surprisingly good results and is often how new sounds and methods are discovered and created.
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2018, 12:53:59 PM »

I gave up on dynamic tom mics except 421. These days it’s DPA 2011c on K&M 24030 drum microphone holders for toms.
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Stephen Kirby

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2018, 05:24:58 PM »

I have e604s and use them for both live and recording.  Next to no eq except for HP and maybe a gate on the floor tom if it rings excessively live.  A pain sometimes with RIMS mounts but the mics are so ubiquitous that many folks have done the same thing as I have and gaff taped something to the narrower rack tom mounts so that the 604 clips fit.  The Audix clips are more versatile but the mics are heavier and more colored to that deep "thwap" sound of arena rock.
I've learned to tighten the reso head of my drums to control the sustain but carry moongel and gaff tape for those situations when a drummer can't get their toms under control.
I've also done the session thing with endless jockying of 421s and when I listen to those tracks and compare to what I get at home with 604s clipped on there isn't enough difference to make it worth it.  By the time the rest of the music is mixed in any differences are swamped.
I've gotten great sound live with open drums (drums that don't have damped heads or stuff stuck to them) and highly damped drums.  It depends on what the drummer is trying to do.  Well tuned open drums are easy.  Damped drums take a bit more eq and often some reverb.  Poorly tuned open drums get gated or the moongel.
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Steve Crump

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2018, 06:25:16 PM »

This really doesn't answer the OP's original question, but I am going to give a +1 on the D2s.
A couple years ago we were trying to record some Jazz influenced Funk with a drummer using a 5pc set and we tried several different mics on toms and couldn't get what we wanted, so I called a drummer I knew that spends a good bit of time tracking and he recommended the D2s for rack toms, so I ordered a couple and they did give the results that they were looking for. We actually ended up spending a good bit of time trying to get the musicians happy and ended up with D2s on rack toms, KSM27 on floor tom, Advanced Audio CM414 on overheads, 57 or 81 on snare, e902 on kick resonate head and Beta 52 on batter head. Worked great.

Of course, for mobile live setups we just use one of the Shure kits. Never had any complaints.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 06:32:56 PM by Steve Crump »
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2018, 07:05:50 AM »

I've also done the session thing with endless jockying of 421s and when I listen to those tracks and compare to what I get at home with 604s clipped on there isn't enough difference to make it worth it.

This reinforces Sennheiser's claim that 604 was voiced to mimic 421..
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Audix mic on toms
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2018, 07:05:50 AM »


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