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[Keith Broughton]

, but it sounds to me like Nathan is bothered that someone is going to be crushed by a speaker. Not that he'll be responsible, but that someone may die because of this client's ignorance.

Many bad things happen because of ignorance but you can't be responsible.
Walk away.

[John Halliburton]

CYA. I would write a letter to the soon-to-be former client and say:

I recommended you do X, Y, and Z.
I advised you against doing A, B, and C.
I told you that by doing A, B, and C that you run a significant and substantial risk of personal injury, death, and/or property damage.
I am not willing to do A, B, and C for you because of the risk associated with doing so.
Thank you for considering me as a vendor on this project.

And be darn sure to keep a copy for your records!  Your insuance agent and lawyer will thank you.

Send a copy to your lawyer and insurance agent for their files.  Even better, send the letter to all three parties certified mail so it's dated and signed for.

Tell your friends if the venue goes thru with an unsafe install, but do walk away from this.

Best regards,

John

[scottstephens]

Send a copy to your lawyer and insurance agent for their files.  Even better, send the letter to all three parties certified mail so it's dated and signed for.

Tell your friends if the venue goes thru with an unsafe install, but do walk away from this.

Best regards,

John

+1 This is it what you do if you think that the situation is really dangerous.

Scott

[Mark Cadwallader]

Send a copy to your lawyer and insurance agent for their files.  Even better, send the letter to all three parties certified mail so it's dated and signed for.

Pro tip:  If you send a letter via certified mail (return receipt requested), also send a copy via regular first class mail.  Some folks (especially shady operators) will not accept certified mail. If the letter sent first class is NOT returned as "undeliverable", I think you have good evidence that the adressee still got the letter, despite a failure to sign for/accept the certified copy.

YMMV.

[Tim McCulloch]

This is all fine from the perspective of covering oneself, but it sounds to me like Nathan is bothered that someone is going to be crushed by a speaker. Not that he'll be responsible, but that someone may die because of this client's ignorance.


I haven't been in that situation myself, but my approach would be to point out that the lower-cost installation won't be up to standard, and here's a list of probable outcomes, including jail time, very large fines, closing of venue etc etc etc. Make it very obvious that if something happens, lives will be ruined, and not just the poor person that happened to have a speaker hit them.
If they want to proceed after that, I'd watch from a safe distance and then make an anonymous call to whoever checks these things out. With a bit of luck, they'll be slapped with a smaller fine and closed until the rigging is up to standard. You might even get the job of fixing it.

Sometimes a good hard reality check is enough to set people straight.

Chris

Hey Chris, this is 'murica, where we are FREE!  Free to do stupid stuff that maims, injures, destroys or kills.  I can think of NO jurisdiction where calling "an inspector" would do any good whatsoever unless there was a corresponding, IMMEDIATE threat of building collapse, fire/explosion or other calamity.  Sadly and seriously.

And unless the work required a permit or license to be issued prior to work, chances are fairly good that in most locales the inspector would not have jurisdiction (see above), in which case the best that would happen would be the issuance of a "stop work" order that the venue in question would likely ignore.

Sorry to be a pessimist but I've watched too much shoddy work done and witnessed the lack of recourse until there was fire, structural failures, personal injury or death.

In the UK, tell me how the Grenfell Towers worked out...  use of banned/known dangerous materials, lots of "inspectors" in England - and 71 people still died.

[Tim McCulloch]

2 thoughts/discussions/questions.

1) What would you do when a client repeatedly does exactly the opposite of your suggestions and continues to do what he/she wants instead of following your guidance? (obviously drop the client; but it's not always so black and white is it?) [say you have a vested interest in their success]

2) What to do when that client, if you were to drop them would undoubtedly perform unsafe installation of equipment in their venue and you are the only one between the client creating a horribly dangerous situation for the crowd and having a safe calculated & signed off via a professional engineering firm install?

---

I'm posing this is hypothetical for discussion purposes. It isn't. But to explain things properly it is utterly complicated and I don't feel I need/should go into specifics.

For now, what's some situations y'all have been in like this and what did you do about it?

Nathan, unless I'm mistaken you've discussed this venue/operator before.  He's sketchy and his diametric opposition to your doing the work he hired you to do *could* indicate a possible psychiatric problem you don't want to deal with (trust me).

I understand that you *feel* obligated to prevent, to the best of your ability, this operator from doing potentially dangerous and lethal things.  You need to discuss this with an attorney who specializes in torts and tort immunity in order to get a better view of your potential legal liability.  $200 for an hour of attorney time is a good investment, IMHO.

My guess is that you have little legal authority or control, and if you don't touch the work, little culpability.

If the work could potentially endanger the structure you might go to the property owner (presuming this is a leased/rented venue) but that puts you between the operator and landlord and interfering with that relationship could get you named in a suit if the operator is evicted or otherwise sanctioned by the landlord.  Again, consult an attorney in your jurisdiction.

Send a copy to your lawyer and insurance agent for their files.  Even better, send the letter to all three parties certified mail so it's dated and signed for.

Tell your friends if the venue goes thru with an unsafe install, but do walk away from this.

Best regards,

John

CYA, as John says.  You have no power as you are not the owner of the real estate or operator of the business.

[Nathan Riddle]

Excellent info here, I really appreciate all the replies.

To give some more info.

Tim, no this is not the same client as 'usual'. New client to me, old to others.

Over-budget in other areas and AV was their last thought (wants to open Feb 2nd). Other companies came out quoted nice, but insane (to client) pricing. Wants to do as minimal as possible at this point to keep costs down until they can open and have cash flow.

At this point it's up in the air whether I'll end up doing the work or not. But he's already done the two above things in other venues and with other people. I'm preparing for the worst.

Vested interest because a friend will be 'working' the venue and they want it to succeed; I want to be poised to strongly advise not enabling a bad situation into a dangerous one both to my friend and the client.

The simple solution is to not do anything until there is more money to do things 'correctly' Either that or take out a loan*shurg*

Nothing bad has happened yet. Besides disregard of suggested light/sound system(s). [Thinks they know best].

---

I'll report with what happens.

I need to report back with my other trussing to the wall thread (that's what I'm assuming y'all are referring to).

[Bob Leonard]

Nathan,

Your reply tells a tail, and not a good one at that. Your reply is suggesting that you'll be willing to do what he wants if given the contract. This statement alone is contrary to all of the advice given above, and given based on the premise the installation is an existing hazard. Your reply now states that the install has not begun, that you may be the installer, and that you may have to perform sub standard work in order to win the bid.

Let's be right to the point. No one can make you perform a substandard or unsafe installation, period. It's this simple. You quote the job properly, present each portion of the job with details as a line item and submit your quote. If you win the bid then you do the work quoted, including safely mounting or hanging cabinets, routing cables, etc..

If you do not state the installation will be done to a specific safety standard, if you cut corners, or otherwise take shortcuts to save time or money based on the venue's requests, and in a manner not specified in your quote and approved by the vendors, inspectors and applicable laws it is YOU who have committed the infraction, and it is YOU who will be responsible for injuries or failures from that point on.

It may be tempting to come in as the low bidder, win the bid, and put soup on the table. But facts remain, and.....

If you don't bid properly, and if you can't do the job with safety as a first priority, then don't do the job at ll.

[William Schnake]

It may be tempting to come in as the low bidder, win the bid, and put soup on the table. But facts remain, and.....

If you don't bid properly, and if you can't do the job with safety as a first priority, then don't do the job at ll.

What Bob said.

Bill

[Nathan Riddle]

Nathan,

1,2) Your reply tells a tail, and not a good one at that. Your reply is suggesting that you'll be willing to do what he wants if given the contract. This statement alone is contrary to all of the advice given above, and given based on the premise the installation is an existing hazard. Your reply now states that the install has not begun, that you may be the installer, and that you may have to perform sub standard work in order to win the bid.

3) Let's be right to the point. No one can make you perform a substandard or unsafe installation, period. It's this simple. You quote the job properly, present each portion of the job with details as a line item and submit your quote. If you win the bid then you do the work quoted, including safely mounting or hanging cabinets, routing cables, etc..

4) If you do not state the installation will be done to a specific safety standard, if you cut corners, or otherwise take shortcuts to save time or money based on the venue's requests, and in a manner not specified in your quote and approved by the vendors, inspectors and applicable laws it is YOU who have committed the infraction, and it is YOU who will be responsible for injuries or failures from that point on.

5) It may be tempting to come in as the low bidder, win the bid, and put soup on the table. But facts remain, and.....

6) If you don't bid properly, and if you can't do the job with safety as a first priority, then don't do the job at ll.

First,

Bob, Thanks for making sure I'm on the straight & narrow.

Perhaps my post can be interpreted in this way. But it is not the case. I believe I have led you astray with my somewhat vagueness.

To be clear. I am not at all willing to enable or help this venue do what they want using substandard methods.

1) I have a certified structural engineering firm involved if I get the job. I will NOT do the gig unless they sign off on the building structure and installation & the client is willing to pay for that. I don't care if it is putting one light on one 'pipe/beam/whatever'

2) The building is not an existing hazard. There is no AVL equipment installed. I am envisioning random friends of the owner putting the AVL equipment in his venue if I don't get the gig.

3) That is exactly what I did. Proper materials, line-item'd, engineering firm, etc.

4) Agreed.

5) I didn't explain the low-bidder portion well. My apologies.
Other companies came in with FULL lighting & sound installs in upwards of 90k for the venue. A major amount of time passed and expectations lowered and owners changed.
I am ONLY putting 3x sticks of truss in the venue. No Audio cables, speakers, amps. No light fixtures, wires, electrical. I am not beating their quote, I am not even competing with anyone.

6) 100% agree.

Hopefully, I explained myself a bit better.

[ProSoundWeb Community]