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Author Topic: How to cluster subs KW181s  (Read 9172 times)

RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2018, 07:37:57 PM »

I wouldn't do a traditional cluster.  I would do a single vertical stack, six high against a wall.  You have 18' of ceiling height to work with.  Plenty of room.  You get more even horizontal coverage and you'll get directionality in front of the stack due to the longer length of the radiators.  You'll keep less energy off of the ceilings so there could potentially be less reflections to cause cancellations somewhere in the room.
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John Schalk

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 04:53:14 PM »

2 stacks, 3 high were placed about 20' apart on the ground tight against the upstage wall. They were stacked on top a truss base plate to serve as additional ballast too. It was more than enough low end for 1300 people in this 14,000' room. Easily more low end than was needed. Now to figure out how to stop all the rattles in the other hardware created by PA vibrations.

This sounds like a pretty traditional left/right deployment, just pushed all the way upstage.  If you're going to do a similar event again in the same space, perhaps you can try flipping one sub on each side around to make a small cardiod array.  You seem to have had plenty of output, so you wouldn't miss the modest -3dB output this would cost you.  Just a thought.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2018, 08:29:36 PM »

This sounds like a pretty traditional left/right deployment, just pushed all the way upstage.  If you're going to do a similar event again in the same space, perhaps you can try flipping one sub on each side around to make a small cardiod array.  You seem to have had plenty of output, so you wouldn't miss the modest -3dB output this would cost you.  Just a thought.

That won't make a cardiod array, and it won't cost you 3dB. Just a thought...
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2018, 08:42:21 PM »

This sounds like a pretty traditional left/right deployment, just pushed all the way upstage.  If you're going to do a similar event again in the same space, perhaps you can try flipping one sub on each side around to make a small cardiod array.  You seem to have had plenty of output, so you wouldn't miss the modest -3dB output this would cost you.  Just a thought.
It takes PROPER deployment to get a directional array.

You must get the proper spacing, proper polarity to the proper cabinets, proper delay to the proper cabinets (depending on the type of directional array you are trying to do, endfire or cardioid), and the proper positioning of the whole array (ie away from walls).

Simply turning some cabinets around WILL NOT provide directional subs, but WILL produce cancellations in the response out front, and energize surfaces you don't want to energize.

It must be done correctly, or not at all, because it will be worse than simply "piling up the subs".
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Ivan Beaver
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John Schalk

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2018, 12:01:49 PM »

That won't make a cardiod array, and it won't cost you 3dB. Just a thought...

Okay, so re-reading my post I realized that I left out the part about inverting the polarity on the flipped around sub.  I think I presumed that the OP would understand the concept.  For reference, I was suggesting Example 2 in this document:

http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/cajondesastre/pdfs/Downloaded_from_Doctor_ProAudio_com-SettingUp_cardioid-Joan_La_Roda-DAS_Audio.pdf

After I submitted the post, I  thought about one of the values of a cardioid array being that it reduces the amount of low end on the stage, but that wouldn't be of much benefit to the OP's scenario for this dance event, so probably not worth the time to try it.  And, as Ivan posted, it's not as simple as just flipping a sub around and inverting the polarity, you have to measure.  So, my bad.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2018, 05:14:36 PM »

  And, as Ivan posted, it's not as simple as just flipping a sub around and inverting the polarity, you have to measure.  So, my bad.
And when you measure, you should realize the following. 

In Cardioid mode, you will have less output, in front, than the same number of subs all facing forward.

You will also have less "top end of the bass (ie punch)", because of the cancellation going on.

You will also have less deep bass (on the bottom end of the subs), again due to the cancellations.

So you MUST ask yourself, is the cancellation REALLY more important than the SPL output and loss of freq response?

maybe, maybe not, but that depends on the SPECIFIC situation.

I don't do any sort of directional subs unless the cancellation is simply the most important thing for the show.

 I generally try to avoid it.  I know a number of people like to do it because they think it is "cool and hip" and simply don't understand the "price" that they are paying to "be cool".

There is always a tradeoff, and it IS important to understand the tradeoffs.
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Ivan Beaver
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2018, 05:33:26 PM »

And when you measure, you should realize the following. 


{big ol' snip}

There is always a tradeoff, and it IS important to understand the tradeoffs.

So Ivan, do you really mean to say "it depends"?  :D

I do the reversed sub/flipped polarity/add delay cardioid setup a lot.  We take more subs & power as a result but in many of the venues we work it's to our advantage.

By far the biggest contributor to unexpected results is proximity to boundary surfaces.
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Randy Pence

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2018, 05:49:41 PM »

After I submitted the post, I  thought about one of the values of a cardioid array being that it reduces the amount of low end on the stage, but that wouldn't be of much benefit to the OP's scenario for this dance event, so probably not worth the time to try it.  And, as Ivan posted, it's not as simple as just flipping a sub around and inverting the polarity, you have to measure.  So, my bad.

The first thing to measure would be the distance from the wall, whereas the OPs plan was to set them against it, leaving no room for the wave to collapse behind the stack
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2018, 07:12:02 PM »

So Ivan, do you really mean to say "it depends"?  :D

I do the reversed sub/flipped polarity/add delay cardioid setup a lot.  We take more subs & power as a result but in many of the venues we work it's to our advantage.

By far the biggest contributor to unexpected results is proximity to boundary surfaces.
Yes.

I have even heard people say that the reason they do cardioid is that is actually LOUDER in front than a regular setup.

Of course they have not measured.

The "reason" is that the energy that is not going behind the array, is being "redirected" to the front.

I guess it makes sense, as long as you don't understand what really happens.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: How to cluster subs KW181s
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2018, 07:12:02 PM »


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