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Author Topic: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches  (Read 5795 times)

Benjamin Krumholz

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Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« on: December 22, 2017, 01:40:25 pm »

Hey All,

Heres the situation.. I am talking about only control network here NOT DANTE.. Simplified setup..

One control computer (HiQ net, Yamaha control).
Two SG300 Switches Switch 1= PRIMARY  Switch2= secondary.. ( Switches are programmed as Yamaha suggests( VLAN 1 = Control, Vlan2=Dante, Fiber ports are TRUNKED)
Connected to, Another Two Cisco Switches..
One network amplifier or console.. ( Control only not talking DANTE or any digital audio)

So i connect Computer to VLAN 1 of the primary switch and Amplifier to VLAN 1 of the other primary switch... What happens when I lose the link between the Primary switchs? Do i have to move both the computer and Amplifier to the secondary switch?

My question is, Can I loop VLAN 1 on both the Primary and Secondary Switches?? I get that I can use a secondary network adapter to connect to the secondary switch, but what do i do on the amp/console end?
Can i put a switch infront of the amp/ console and send the signal into Both Primary and secondary switches? Will this Freak out the network?

Thanks,
Ben
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Rob Spence

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2017, 02:09:03 pm »

I canít answer the technical question you have but, productions that need secondary networks, in general, in my opinion, also have gear that will connect to both primary and secondary networks.

Analyze what the impact to you is in the event of a failure. In your case, you would loose control, but not necessarily audio if the audio path is via Dante and all the Dante enabled audio devices support primarily and secondary networks.
So, what happens for you if you loose the control computer connection?

For me, I am not changing things with a control computer during a show, so, perhaps I may not care.

Anyway, $.02 worth of food for thought


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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 02:42:50 pm »

Look into Spanning Tree and BGP. Loopguard for network redundancy for your data layer.

In laymens terms.

Create trunks with all your vlans between all primary/backup switches.
Turn on loopguard between primary/backup switches.

It won't protect against the device or switch going down on the primary side, but it will protect from the primary fiber going down.

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/docs/lan-switching/spanning-tree-protocol/5234-5.html
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 02:45:29 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 03:37:05 pm »

BGP is layer 3 and Spanning Tree is not the way I would go.

If the switches support stacking just create a pair of stack links and be done with it. 

If the switches don't do that create a LAG or link aggregation group with vlan trunking.  All vlans in each switch will be linked.

Any devices with two uplinks plug one in each switch.  For a critical control computer you can add a second NIC and join them to a LAG group.  One link per switch.

This gives you host level high availability at layer 2

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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 03:59:15 pm »

BGP is layer 3 and Spanning Tree is not the way I would go.

If the switches support stacking just create a pair of stack links and be done with it. 

If the switches don't do that create a LAG or link aggregation group with vlan trunking.  All vlans in each switch will be linked.

Any devices with two uplinks plug one in each switch.  For a critical control computer you can add a second NIC and join them to a LAG group.  One link per switch.

This gives you host level high availability at layer 2

BGP - Yeah - I mean for research's sake, not for his application. [I should have clarified]

Wouldn't that during failover cause issues with Dante switchover as the switches are handling the Dante switch too instead of Dante handling it at the device?

I guess you could put the backup Dante on Vlan 3 so they never touch... (which should be done either way).

Scott, when you get a break later would you mind explaining the benefits of your suggestion as opposed to spanning tree?

- A cursory glance at the differences is stacking is better for management and link aggregation is easier?
- I'd be more concerned about performance than ease of setup as both seem fairly straightforward.
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brian maddox

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 04:12:30 pm »

Hey All,

Heres the situation.. I am talking about only control network here NOT DANTE.. Simplified setup..

One control computer (HiQ net, Yamaha control).
Two SG300 Switches Switch 1= PRIMARY  Switch2= secondary.. ( Switches are programmed as Yamaha suggests( VLAN 1 = Control, Vlan2=Dante, Fiber ports are TRUNKED)
Connected to, Another Two Cisco Switches..
One network amplifier or console.. ( Control only not talking DANTE or any digital audio)

So i connect Computer to VLAN 1 of the primary switch and Amplifier to VLAN 1 of the other primary switch... What happens when I lose the link between the Primary switchs? Do i have to move both the computer and Amplifier to the secondary switch?

My question is, Can I loop VLAN 1 on both the Primary and Secondary Switches?? I get that I can use a secondary network adapter to connect to the secondary switch, but what do i do on the amp/console end?
Can i put a switch infront of the amp/ console and send the signal into Both Primary and secondary switches? Will this Freak out the network?

Thanks,
Ben

In my experience, Dante Primary and Secondary networks do NOT like seeing each other on the same network. Now if the greater networking minds available here can tell you how to 'bridge' the two networks physically while simultaneously making sure that the Dante portions of those networks remain oblivious to each other's presence, then all should be well.  But that if far above my expertise level....
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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 07:17:46 pm »

If the switches support stacking just create a pair of stack links and be done with it. 

If the switches don't do that create a LAG or link aggregation group with vlan trunking.  All vlans in each switch will be linked.


From what I am reading, it does not sound like the cisco supports " staking" as you suggest.. They do suggest to create a LAG..

So do the switches still get connected by a UTP cable between the " TRUNK PORTS? How is this different than just putting a cable between the ports that are on the same Vlan? I do not access the network via the Trunk port.. I always connect the computer and control device directly to the VLAN port, not to the trunk port..
 
Need to do more reading..
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2017, 08:28:54 pm »

From what I am reading, it does not sound like the cisco supports " staking" as you suggest.. They do suggest to create a LAG..

So do the switches still get connected by a UTP cable between the " TRUNK PORTS? How is this different than just putting a cable between the ports that are on the same Vlan? I do not access the network via the Trunk port.. I always connect the computer and control device directly to the VLAN port, not to the trunk port..
 
Need to do more reading..
You sure the SG's are not stackable?  I try to stay away from the the small business series.  I just run into too many limitations compared to IoS based devices.

Anyway, for the Dante devices with dual network interfaces, yes they need to be in their own vlan and hardware segmentation is important.

I thought we were talking about single interface devices and how to keep them up during a switch failure.

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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 09:27:12 pm »


I thought we were talking about single interface devices and how to keep them up during a switch failure.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

We are talking about a single interface device.. But on the control side not the dante side.. So a CL 5 has 3 network ports on it.. A Primary Dante, a secondary dante, and a LAN port. The Primary and Secondary ports are plugged into their respective switches on VLAN 2.. Can I plug the LAN port on the CL5 into a dumb switch and then send 2 cables into VLAN 1 of BOTH Primary and Secondary switches? Or can I just Loop VLAN 1 together on the switches? Since my Dante/ VLAN2 ports are excluded from the VLAN 1 ports wont that maintain the " hardware segmentation"?
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 09:52:47 pm »

BGP is layer 3 and Spanning Tree is not the way I would go.

If the switches support stacking just create a pair of stack links and be done with it. 

If the switches don't do that create a LAG or link aggregation group with vlan trunking.  All vlans in each switch will be linked.

Any devices with two uplinks plug one in each switch.  For a critical control computer you can add a second NIC and join them to a LAG group.  One link per switch.

This gives you host level high availability at layer 2

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Linking primary and secondary Dante networks will crash the audio network. They must be on totally separate networks.

Mac
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 09:54:01 pm »

We are talking about a single interface device.. But on the control side not the dante side.. So a CL 5 has 3 network ports on it.. A Primary Dante, a secondary dante, and a LAN port. The Primary and Secondary ports are plugged into their respective switches on VLAN 2.. Can I plug the LAN port on the CL5 into a dumb switch and then send 2 cables into VLAN 1 of BOTH Primary and Secondary switches? Or can I just Loop VLAN 1 together on the switches? Since my Dante/ VLAN2 ports are excluded from the VLAN 1 ports wont that maintain the " hardware segmentation"?

How would you deal with it in a non Dante environment? With no secondary network what happens when you lose remote control of your far end gear?

Mac
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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 10:12:32 pm »

How would you deal with it in a non Dante environment? With no secondary network what happens when you lose remote control of your far end gear?

Mac

I would send a body to go and investigate! IF the network switched to the secondary switch, that body would have to reconnect said "amp rack" or "console" to the " Secondary "
As always just wondering if it was possible.. I ave heard from a few people now that as long as the DANTE VLAN and CONTROL VLAN are excluded from each other, You should be able to link the Control VLAN together.,
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David Sturzenbecher

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Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2017, 10:25:41 pm »

How would the plan work if Dante and control were on the same network jack, like on a  ULX-D or Lab Gruppen Amp?


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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 10:34:44 pm »

How would the plan work if Dante and control were on the same network jack, like on a  ULX-D or Lab Gruppen Amp?
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Im sure it would not work well at all! We are currently using a DHCP network for the Dante Stuff. All of our control only stuff is Fixed address, including the switches them selves. On the control side we have been running Hiq net, wireless workbench, Yamaha Console control, and more recently now Helix net.... I guess my question applies for devices like that as well. .. The Dante side we have been running our Rio racks and Rednet pieces.
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Tom Bourke

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2017, 10:43:10 pm »

I would send a body to go and investigate! IF the network switched to the secondary switch, that body would have to reconnect said "amp rack" or "console" to the " Secondary "
As always just wondering if it was possible.. I ave heard from a few people now that as long as the DANTE VLAN and CONTROL VLAN are excluded from each other, You should be able to link the Control VLAN together.,
It really depends on what failure mode your trying to eliminate.  You have to look at the implications and steps to recover for each failure mode to decide how you need to protect your self.  Given the confusion most people have over simple static vs DHCP I would tend to think advanced protocols such as spanning tree to be more prone to improper configuration than physical failure.  To that end I think the lowest common denominator approach is best.

In a production environment equipment failure is less likely than a cable getting cut.  Having said that, the number of single point failures possible are pretty high.  We just have to balance the two.  In the specific case of Dante primary, secondary, and control I think the link failure between FOH and stage is generally most difficult to recover. To that end I would link the primary and secondary control networks at the end farthest from the primary control end.  That way the first person to recognize the failure can just switch to the other switch and then have some one figure out where the failure is.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2017, 11:29:24 pm »

That way the first person to recognize the failure can just switch to the other switch and then have some one figure out where the failure is.

I would think the point of all of this is to eliminate the person who has to do the switch and let the cisco devices take care of it themselves.

Though you are right, having a person there is easiest to implement, though improper configuration can be avoided by a mock setup.

I think a simple 3-vlan network with link aggregation or stacking as Scott suggested would be super simple to setup.

You'd have hardware separation for Dante and failover for control.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 11:45:06 pm »

I would think the point of all of this is to eliminate the person who has to do the switch and let the cisco devices take care of it themselves.

Though you are right, having a person there is easiest to implement, though improper configuration can be avoided by a mock setup.

I think a simple 3-vlan network with link aggregation or stacking as Scott suggested would be super simple to setup.

You'd have hardware separation for Dante and failover for control.

If the control and audio are on the same physical interface there is not much you can do.  Do those devices support vlan trunking?  A quick search at the Shure site didn't turn up an answer. 

Ideally you should have two switches, powered off 2 UPS's at both ends.  At each end two uplinks between the switches then two link from FOH to the Stage on diverse paths. 

Edit:  I see the axient stuff has 4 ports, 2 data two audio.  If you have that level gear the redundant network makes sense.

I forgot if it was Rat or Scovill that said they always run two paths from FoH to the stage. 



« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 11:48:03 pm by Scott Holtzman »
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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2018, 10:52:40 am »


Edit:  I see the axient stuff has 4 ports, 2 data two audio.  If you have that level gear the redundant network makes sense.


Ok so take the Axient for example..

I have a WAP and tablet connected to VLAN1 of my primary switch....

Dante Audio Primary port goes to primary Switch Vlan 2
Dante Audio Secondary goes to Secondary Switch Vlan 2

One of the ethernet ports can go into the Primary Switch Vlan 1..

If i plug the second ethernet port on the Axient into the Secondary Switch Vlan 1, Is that not the same thing as putting a jumper cable between VLAN 1 on both the Primary and Secondary Switch?!

What happens if I loose the Primary link and there is no WAP plugged into the Secondary Switch?! I loose control..
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brian maddox

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2018, 11:33:02 am »

Ok so take the Axient for example..

I have a WAP and tablet connected to VLAN1 of my primary switch....

Dante Audio Primary port goes to primary Switch Vlan 2
Dante Audio Secondary goes to Secondary Switch Vlan 2

One of the ethernet ports can go into the Primary Switch Vlan 1..

If i plug the second ethernet port on the Axient into the Secondary Switch Vlan 1, Is that not the same thing as putting a jumper cable between VLAN 1 on both the Primary and Secondary Switch?!

What happens if I loose the Primary link and there is no WAP plugged into the Secondary Switch?! I loose control..

Well, i think the answer depends on how Shure deals with the 2 data ports in the Axient.  If they are just a "mini-switch" then i would think it would be the same as throwing a jumper on there.  But if it addresses those internally as separate datalinks that address control independently....

It makes me think of when i use my MacBook for both Dante and Gear control via the Wired Ethernet, and Internet access via the WiFi [both networks created by our crew on site, but on very different subnets].  The MacBook keeps the networks separate and i can access the 2 with different applications at the same time.  Until i can't.  All it takes is one application that doesn't know for sure which network i want to use [i see you Google Chrome] and things get weird.


I think the hole in my basic networking knowledge is can you create a networking "loop" without bad things happening?  Everything that i do now is some sort of wagon wheel topology.  What you're trying to do is to create a pair of virtual networks for system control that are riding the same copper as your Dante networks, and have a way for the controlling and controlled devices to see BOTH of them in case either network fails.  Dante devices do this redundancy internally.  But creating that for a control network feels trickier.

Maybe we need to sit in the shop for a day and plug a bunch of stuff together and try to break it until we figure it out.  :)



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brian maddox
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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2018, 11:56:42 am »

When using multiple networks on 1 computer you should set the metric of the links.
The computer will access the networks with lower metric first. The default for Windows is that the LAN has a lower metric than the WLAN. Not sure about macs, but i guess it will be the same.
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Benjamin Krumholz

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2018, 03:43:16 pm »


Maybe we need to sit in the shop for a day and plug a bunch of stuff together and try to break it until we figure it out.  :)

Come By any time Brian... We are always "Trying to break it.."

So the problem is not on the computer side.. You can always get a secondary, Third, NIC for a computer to access both.  Primary and Secondary Vlan1 or Vlan2

A device like an amplifier or mic receiver typically would only have one network interface.. In the PSM1000 with dual network ports, it is as you say.. A mini Switch...
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brian maddox

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Re: Control Network on Primary and Secondary Dante Switches
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2018, 04:08:43 pm »

Come By any time Brian... We are always "Trying to break it.."

So the problem is not on the computer side.. You can always get a secondary, Third, NIC for a computer to access both.  Primary and Secondary Vlan1 or Vlan2

A device like an amplifier or mic receiver typically would only have one network interface.. In the PSM1000 with dual network ports, it is as you say.. A mini Switch...

I"m going to take you up on the invite as soon as i can.  'cause i'm genuinely curious as to the solution to this problem.  Plus i like breaking stuff....  :)

Meanwhile, if you solve this i'll come by just so you can show me the solution.
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