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Author Topic: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space  (Read 5855 times)

brian maddox

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2017, 04:04:22 pm »

Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.

Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.

Mac

Mac used the word 'familiar' several times in this post, and i think it is a key concept to understand.  It's great that such and such a console has a bunch of new bells and whistles and sounds amazing and is super affordable, but since i'm not paying for it and i don't need fancy bells and whistles, i will opt for the devil i know EVERY TIME.

Case in point.  Last week i did a show at a studio in NYC using a LAWO MC256.  It's a lovely console and the integrated Waves rig i had to work with was pretty much limitless.  But...  The show was a frantic scramble with very little rehearsal time.  I had about 8 different musical acts and in most cases less than 5 minutes each to dial in a workable broadcast mix.  The first actual complete show runthrough was when we did the show.  So one of those shows. In this environment, i'd rather have had a CL5 or even a QL5, not because they are superior desks but because i am more familiar with them and can work much more quickly.

Now if i have several weeks of rehearsals with no pressure to learn a new workflow i might feel very differently.  That LAWO certainly had some interesting features.  But those types of situations are exceedingly rare.  At least in my world...

 
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brian maddox
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2017, 04:07:41 pm »

There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.

I wonder if this guy knows that DiGiCo and A&H are sister brands?

Seems that you posted in the thread on CSMT on FB as I got a notification, though It seems that that conversation thread was deleted by someone as I can't see it anymore :( I was enjoying the conversation and was going to respond to him at some point about my credentials.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2017, 04:18:27 pm »

Seems that you posted in the thread on CSMT on FB as I got a notification, though It seems that that conversation thread was deleted by someone as I can't see it anymore :( I was enjoying the conversation and was going to respond to him at some point about my credentials.
The guy FB Messengered me his credentials and appears to be 'in the biz'.  I don't know him and don't want to disparage someone I don't know; all I will say is my experience with A&H gear and his do not coincide.

It's probably best that part of the discussion got deleted - it was WAY off topic from the original question.
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Scott Mullane

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2017, 07:29:39 pm »

QUOTE - "Audio-Jason Vero  Lastly, a quote from NAB session“ the new dlive has some great features for the novice engineer but nothing screams pro audio. We will be really surprised to see any large pa companies or engineers pushing this desk. We believe it will find its place in the House of Worship and small theatre world.”

WOW! Well I do not know who this guy is, but he is definitely quoting from not a very large pool of information.

Firstly it is my understanding that Calir Bros. has purchased quite a few D-Lives. SO, I guess he does not consider Clair Global a large rental company. JPJ in Aust. even has one at this stage. JPJ is 50% owned by Clair Global so that may not count as much...anyway.

I spec the board that I use for FOH for the acts I tour with and I will spend from JAN. to end of April touring with two acts on a festival circuit for audiences of 7-10k with a large scale L'Acoustics K2 rig. I choose D-live, but I guess I am a novice so maybe that does not count. (read with sarcasm)

I agree that the D-live is not a "current" rider friendly board, but that is slowly changing and it seems that troglodytes that need to see the right badge are the only stalwarts refusing to acknowledge just how powerful and sonically great the D-live is. I mean, I still take out Digico, Avid and even Yamaha for particular shows that require certain parameters or I cannot justify changing, but D-Live can easily substitute most all of those shows.

I have two versions of the D-live now, an S series for larger events and a C-1500 to fly with me on tours where I am not picking up a board at each show. I do not miss my Avid board at all even though it was rider friendly.

So, sorry to disagree with you Jason Vero, but I say it does scream pro audio for those that do not need their ego stroked by a brand badge. ; )
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Justice C. Bigler

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 02:28:27 am »

In nine years in this current job, I haven't seen a single rider that I can remember that asked for an Allen&Heath console at FOH or monitors. It's usually Avid, Digico, Yamaha, Midas, or Soundcraft. And We have not had any tours bring their own Allen&Heath console.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2017, 03:55:15 am »

At the risk of repetition...

Console selections are made by the FOH Mixerperson IF a console is being carried on tour.  Exceptions are stepping into a tour already in progress; if the artist's production manager has an over-ruling vote; if a substitution must be made for whatever reasons.

I've heard back-to-back BEs talk smack about (or highly praise) consoles they are not using and when I ask why, the answers almost invariably come back to *perceived* differences in audition, followed by workflow and then feature set.  I can fully understand feature set and workflow - if you don't have the former you can't do your work, and if a desk is unfamiliar (see Brian M's post) you're working against it until you get familiar... but after all these decades I still maintain that *within the market price brackets* most consoles sound very similar when operated between the white lines... extreme operation (high or low) is where the genuine differences are revealed and, if you have to do that often, becomes a decision factor.

As for Allen-Heath.  Man, I wish I knew which crappy mixer from long ago still haunts them as I've seen "NO Allen-Heath" on riders for at least 20 years (along with Peavey, Mackie, Hill and a couple others).  I think TJ could be right about A-H acquiring the Peavey Syndrome - affordable, flexible, nice features for the price - allowing those of otherwise dubious experience or cred to try and do shows beyond their competence; i.e. someone got burned really bad, more than once, by providers with A-H mixers and the console became a symbol of "just no."

Also agree that there is some conflation of acceptance by touring BEs as being necessary for consideration for other uses or as validation of the product itself.  I'm not sure why that might be important because if it were, Midas would not have needed rescue by Music Group or SSL by angel investor Peter Gabriel.  The real money, even with relatively thin margins, is in engineered installation systems.  I'd bet dbx makes more profit from ZonePro than they made from the DR4800...  And there is a great market for "good enough".  Look at the Yamaha M7 - aimed at houses of worship, small theaters and nightclubs.  Not a *great* console but that didn't stop it from making money for Yammy and having an impact on the market at the time.

The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully.  Brand?  Less important.
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MikeHarris

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2017, 04:25:13 am »

It's always difficult for a lower end brand to pull itself up to a point where it is compteting at the top tier.
If Soundtracks hadn't changed it's name to Digico I think we might be having a similar discussion about their brand image.
Yes..it is ironic how they are now sister companies.
The A&H may find it's comfortable nice in the church market which in no way demeans it's image.
Can you name another console that can make 8 iPad mixes with no work surface ?
And if you intend to climb into a broadcast truck to do a music show you'd better jump on the LAWO bus.
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brian maddox

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 05:14:25 am »

The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully.  Brand?  Less important.

^^^Testify^^^ 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 09:49:00 pm by brian maddox »
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brian maddox
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Art Nadelman

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 08:14:02 am »


The best mixer is the one at FOH that is fully functional, has the features I need to mix my artist and is sufficiently familiar to me that I can control it quickly and masterfully.  Brand?  Less important.


First of all, don't get me wrong with these comments.  I'm a dLive owner and user.  I LOVE the board.  The sound is terrific.  The workflow is superb.

Now to the quotes...

Perhaps that's why Behringer has sold so many X32's?  I can't tell you how many festivals I've seen/done where an X32 was actually specified.  You can't say that the X32 is the same quality as all of the others mentioned.  But they sure have sold a bunch and they sure are on a bunch of riders.  Why?  Because it's readily available, the BE has a show file for it already and they can make it work.  But then there's the badge.  How many engineers wouldn't even consider mixing on one because of the brand?  A bunch.


Can you name another console that can make 8 iPad mixes with no work surface ?


Yes.  I can name a some.  Behringer X32 Cores and Racks, Allen & Heath GLD's and iLives, and the Presonus RM mixers.  I'm sure there are more.  I just haven't used them with an iPad and don't know how many concurrent iPads you can run on them.  And they're not the same quality as the dLive.  But I can make them work if that's what's required.
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Jason Raboin

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2017, 08:44:47 am »

This is a timely thread for me.  I carry consoles on tour.  The budget, input list, and means of travel dictate which console that is.  In general, it has been Avid, as my main artist purchased an S3L when it first came out. It has also been Midas H3000, Digico SD10, Profile, etc.

In 2018 I'll be doing 3 EU tours each lasting 4-5 weeks and 1 US tour of the same length.  After system teching a show over the summer I decided I wanted to move away from the S3L.  The two acts had SD12 and SC48 at FOH.  The difference in sound quality was significant.  I want that sound.

I also own a regional sound company.  Our inventory includes an SC48, but mostly Yamaha CL and QL consoles.  I think we've moved to a place where if a tour isn't carrying, they aren't very picky as long as everything works and is well laid out.  There are exceptions, but it means renting something in once or twice a year.

For the sound company, I don't think an SD12 is a smart investment.  At the level we work, we are finding that more and more tours are carrying consoles, and ours go out less and less.  We haven't worked into the tour control package rental market (yet), so the SD12 would have a rental rate too high for most of our market.  I could take it on tour, but once the artist retires in 2019, we're back to square one.  Also, I think an SD12 might be more console than the 17 channel tour requires, even though we're playing large theaters.

So this has led me to a Dlive.  I haven't crunched all the numbers yet, but it looks like an S3000 and DM48 will be close to half the price of an SD12.  That makes it far more attractive for both the tour and the rental inventory. 
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