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Author Topic: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space  (Read 5959 times)

Nathan Riddle

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How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« on: December 22, 2017, 11:01:53 am »

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'm curious as to where this guy's coming from?

-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?

Springing off of this dLive thread: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,155022.0.html

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Audio-Jason Vero  Please everyone stay away from Allen and Heath they are the worst I am not sure what integrator started that horrible thing and basically ripping people off but so many churches have them and they’re awful if you are looking for a good product I would choose Yamaha or if you’re looking for a Madi Infrastructure then digico

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Nathan Riddle  What on Earth are you talking about? A&H is in the same league as digico and SSL

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Audio-Jason Vero  I would have to disagree we fix at least 9 to 1 Allen and Heath console and find none of them are rider friendly if you have a larger band or events coming into your worship center you’ll never see and Alan and heath on an award show any kind of music television or super large scale music tour unless it’s with the opening band. I know for a fact the ones you do see that have gone out with larger artist like snoop dog had one for a little while they always switch back after they try it to a Yamaha , digico or SSL.

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Audio-Jason Vero  Nathan Riddle could you please give me 10 touring artists that do shows to an audience of more than 5k on a regular basis? And I don’t believe you can as there are not even that many listed on Allen and Heath’s website as artist that use their console. I do consulting work and FOH for at least eight companies that own more than 60 digital consoles and not one owns an Allen and Heath I could see a small regional company that owns one or two consoles owning them or a church that got talked into buying one but no larger reputable company that owns a lot of consoles that does large shows owns them

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Jeremy Van Valkenburg  I think as the dLive gets more and more out there you will see it more on tour. I have heard in Europe it’s on probably 35% of riders. It sounds great, is easy to use, and is very affordable. 35k for a decked out dLive or 50k for a Yamaha.

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Audio-Jason Vero  Unfortunately the ones in Europe are a lot of smaller production bands and those guys will use anything

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Audio-Jason Vero  Also you get what you pay for. Of course it is cheaper

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Audio-Jason Vero  Lastly, a quote from NAB session“ the new dlive has some great features for the novice engineer but nothing screams pro audio. We will be really surprised to see any large pa companies or engineers pushing this desk. We believe it will find its place in the House of Worship and small theatre world.”

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Nathan Riddle  Your argument that in a saturated market where a newish board would automatically take over while companies are still paying off the initial investment from rentals of just as capable consoles is quite poor.

You may breath different air than the rest of us but your opinion holds less merit than you think.

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Audio-Jason Vero  We all breathe the same air however I am not sure of your experience in the industry from the Perspective of a Foh engineer for larger bands I have the decision of what console i want to use and my collegues choose what console they want and they dictate To the rental houses in the rental houses by based on demand I have demoed the Dlive And I just do not find that the sound and functionality it’s even close to other brands such as Yamaha SSL and digico. I feel the reliability is lower as well. You can call it a saturated market all you want however there’s a reason when new console comes out if they are good enough they replace others. Amongst all the larger companies who do this every day the dlive is not replacing any of their consoles
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Andrew Hollis

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2017, 11:54:33 am »

-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?
  • Artists generally do not choose a console, engineers do. They get consoles from rental companies. They change by rehearsing, or not!
  • Engineers choose what console they use, in collaboration with the production manager, with management approval (cost). Sometimes the production is already set up, and the engineer must use what has already been selected by a previous engineer.
  • If an engineer/tour goes to a production company and says they want X console, then the production company likely needs X console if they want to keep this client. If they don't have it and won't buy it, they will 'dry hire' the console from someone that does have it. Like any marketplace, the market "tells" production companies what they need.
  • In any market, new takes time. There is a lot of stick-with-what-you-know, for both appropriate reasons and human-nature-fear-of-change reasons.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 12:03:15 pm by Andrew Hollis »
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2017, 12:18:00 pm »

Right on, thanks.

Now the next question from this exchange.

Is the "A&H is crap" notion.
&
The "list 10x bands" using the dLive.

Do tours/large events determine if a brand is "crap" or not?
Does A&H having low reliability for the big leaguers?
Is A&H not rider friendly?
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2017, 12:27:12 pm »

You seem to keep finding the dLive haters out there!  I'd be very curious to hear his rationale for saying that the dLive has a lower reliability than other consoles.  If anything, not having to pass audio/data to the surface to still get sound would only help to increase the reliability!  Anyways, reading between the lines of the conversations we've both participated in recently regarding the product and knowing that we're both interested in the product (though I know you just bought an SQ-6), I can definitely see merit in doing all the research you can on these and their role in larger applications. 

I too have been reading forums with the "Why shouldn't I buy a dLive" mentality, price aside.  I can't speak at all to the larger sound world, but I've been through similar arguments in lighting world.  You can imagine the strange looks I get when walking into a concert with an ETC desk!  Most "pro" level users are carrying a grandMA or Hog variant (or realistically, rent it).  So why ETC?  I just like the desk better for my style of programming and operating.  Sure, people hate them and think ETC has no place outside of theater, but 99% of these people have never actually touched one or used one outside of a demo room.  I like the workflow and interface of my ETC desk, which is much of what draws me to the dLive.  I'm not sure how your company compares to mine (though I think we're similar), but since I don't have any strict riders to worry about meeting I'd much rather invest in what I want to use versus what the industry says I need to use.  Just my 2 cents and I know it's not a real answer to your question, but if my experience with lighting is anything like how sound works you'll find haters of every product.  Good luck!
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Mac Kerr

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2017, 12:43:44 pm »

Right on, thanks.

Now the next question from this exchange.

Is the "A&H is crap" notion.
&
The "list 10x bands" using the dLive.

Do tours/large events determine if a brand is "crap" or not?
Does A&H having low reliability for the big leaguers?
Is A&H not rider friendly?

Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.

Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.

Mac
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2017, 01:36:59 pm »

Most large events get the console the A1 specifies. He (she) choses it based on more than name. Is it suitable, is it available, am I familiar with it, can I readily get a back up? Digico has gotten firmly entrenched with the tour crowd because it ticks those boxes. Since almost any large format console will tick most of those boxes it may come down to familiarity and availability. As a newcomer at this level of production the A&H DLive will take some time to get enough people familiar with it, and to get enough inventory is the shops to support touring. Those two are a tough road since lack of familiarity means no demand for shops to increase inventory, and lack of inventory means no consoles to get familiar with.

Given time good products usually develop a user base large enough for vendors to have motivation for spending money on inventory.

Mac

Thanks for the explanation.

The process of market expansion & takeover (unsure as to its correctness) was what I was alluding to when I replied to Audio-dude.

Seemed to me that Audio-dude thinks that if the dLive console is good enough it would take over the tour market post haste, in-turn reinforcing that A&H is a good company and their entire range of products are acceptable.

In addition the whole 'sound' quality bias, and 'ease of use' bias, and 'reliability issues' bias; create a difficult environment for market penetration.

Jeff,

Thanks for the perspective pertaining to myself.

To clarify, I would love dLive but can't afford it; so SQ is a verrryy awesome alternative for my live-sound purposes.

I still like to know what's going on out there so I can be a good consultant and integrator for the clients I serve. Like it or not the Church Sound Media Tech group on FB has lots of users and "experts" of various products and when one strongly feels a certain way I enjoy questioning them on their experiences, especially when I have a firm grasp on the subject.

Personally all the higher end manufactures (senn, shure, yammy, A&H, etc) have treated me well as far as reliability and service (because eventually something WILL happen).
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2017, 01:37:25 pm »

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'm curious as to where this guy's coming from?

-How do the larger acts get & change the FOH console?
-How do tours choose their main FOH console?
-Do rental houses really get told which boards to buy?
-Does a new console really 'sweep house' and all the big acts switch?

Springing off of this dLive thread: http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,155022.0.html

---
This guy seems to conflate the needs of A-level touring with the marketability of the DLive (and apparently anything else that says A&H on it).  The number of desks in a rider situation and/or for organizations with 5K or more people represents a very small part of the market compared to the zillions of churches and clubs where the dollars matter.

A&H seems to have a bit of the Peavey problem - because they made desks that were reliable and affordable (analog GL series), they were ubiquitous in clubs that couldn't afford anything else, and many were untouched for decades, accumulating some issues over that time, as any product would.  This guy may indeed work in an area where A&H had a lot of market share and due to a higher number of units in service, a higher number of units needing repair than other brands.  Or he's a brand snob and is making it up.

There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.

I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2017, 01:43:17 pm »

I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?

I doubt that given I stated that in my first reply. (not in so many words obviously)

This guy seems to conflate the needs of A-level touring with the marketability of the DLive (and apparently anything else that says A&H on it).  The number of desks in a rider situation and/or for organizations with 5K or more people represents a very small part of the market compared to the zillions of churches and clubs where the dollars matter.

A&H seems to have a bit of the Peavey problem - because they made desks that were reliable and affordable (analog GL series), they were ubiquitous in clubs that couldn't afford anything else, and many were untouched for decades, accumulating some issues over that time, as any product would.  This guy may indeed work in an area where A&H had a lot of market share and due to a higher number of units in service, a higher number of units needing repair than other brands.  Or he's a brand snob and is making it up.

There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.

I think you hit this nail on the head, because originally the post mentioned a GL series board (post was about a road case desk, not the board; it was merely mentioned). And he immediately took to telling everyone A&H was terrible.
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Don T. Williams

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 01:47:28 pm »


There's enough positive buzz about the DLive that along with its lower price than other options (CL, various Digico) are already making it a market success, with or without this guy's approval.

I wonder if this guy knows that Digico and A&H are sister brands?

And now add SSL as a sister brand!  That may not mean anything, but an interesting development.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: How Tours work - A&H D-Live - Further escapades from book space
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2017, 03:59:17 pm »

Jeff,

Thanks for the perspective pertaining to myself.

To clarify, I would love dLive but can't afford it; so SQ is a verrryy awesome alternative for my live-sound purposes.

I still like to know what's going on out there so I can be a good consultant and integrator for the clients I serve. Like it or not the Church Sound Media Tech group on FB has lots of users and "experts" of various products and when one strongly feels a certain way I enjoy questioning them on their experiences, especially when I have a firm grasp on the subject.

Personally all the higher end manufactures (senn, shure, yammy, A&H, etc) have treated me well as far as reliability and service (because eventually something WILL happen).

No worries Nathan, and that all makes sense.  Just given how often the two of us mention dLive lately I wasn’t sure if you’re on the fence with ownership or not, and looking for more rationale as to why or why not make the investment.  I’m trending towards “yes”, but that’s still sight unseen and could completely change after actually laying hands on one!  Have fun with your new SQ-6!
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