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Author Topic: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow  (Read 3921 times)

Terry Martin

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[Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2017, 11:03:54 am »

If that setup would work good for you, then you can probably find both very cheap used.  I believe you will have trouble with movers and channel count.  But you could move up to software solution later.  We’ve got a fairly large club rig but have our sound engineer dual capped as lighting “guy” too, running a Show Designer 2.   8 movers, and several led pars and a couple of conventional pars for front lighting. 

https:://www.facebook.com/BombshellRox


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Yoan Geay

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2017, 12:03:18 pm »

Hi Terry ! Thanks for stoping by !

Yeah, other Members mentionned the Moving Heads issue, I have to say that I don't necessarily want an Obey70. I'm looking out for different options. Now I'm primarily diving into the global concept of "Controlling Lights/Scenes/Effects" with a quite versatile Footswitch.
[In that case, the FCB1010 seems like a Reference in this Field of Applications]

We're not even close to have our own dedicated Sound/Light guy ;D

It has been suggested to me to invest a little bit more on a good DMX Controller, [A good foundation to build on], maybe one that can handle Movers in a better way. I admit, I'm not sure where/what to look out for a good Starting Point though...

But I'm searching ! :)

PS : As I'm gathering Informations that might be usefull to whoever, (other than me), is searching for help, I just found a recent Brand New Video touching on the Programmation of the FCB1010.
The possibilities are quite impressive. It has been posted just a Week ago, so that's great.

I just have to figure out how deep it can go as for Controlling a DMX Device & its Features... Not simple.

BEHRINGER FCB1010 - Programmation Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNND5nMWhc
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:13:28 pm by Yoan Geay »
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Yoan Geay

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2017, 12:10:26 pm »

[Woops, missclicked : Double Post]
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 12:12:50 pm by Yoan Geay »
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Terry Martin

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2017, 12:26:04 pm »

A friend of mine in Alabama that used to post here a lot used a Show Designer 1 with FCB.   The SD 1 evidently spoke same MIDI language as the FCB.  The SD2 does not.


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Scott Holtzman

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2017, 01:43:52 pm »

A friend of mine in Alabama that used to post here a lot used a Show Designer 1 with FCB.   The SD 1 evidently spoke same MIDI language as the FCB.  The SD2 does not.


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Both are documented in the manual:

Show designer 2:

MIDI
Show Designer 2 lets you trigger scenes with MIDI commands. The scene page and number is
encoded in a MIDI message that is sent to the Show Designer’s MIDI output when a scene is
selected using the number switches or the “go” switch. The “black” switch also sends a MIDI
message allowing you to record a blackout or blackout restore. If that same MIDI message is
returned to the MIDI input, that scene will be called. Since the Show Designer uses its own
type of MIDI message to record scene changes it is recommended that you use the Show
Designer to record the performance.
The Show Designer 2 uses MIDI continuous controller messages to send and receive scene
changes and blackouts.
The message format for scene changes is as follows:
0Bx pp nn, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), pp is the scene page (0-98
decimal) and nn is the scene number (0-47 decimal).
The message format for blackouts is as follows:
0Bx nn vv, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), nn equals 99 decimal and vv is
non zero for blackout on and zero for blackout off.

Show Designer 1:

MIDI
This manual assumes that you have a basic understanding of how MIDI works along with MDI messages
and MIDI channels.
With MIDI you can use a MIDI sequencer or MIDI keyboard to automate a performance. Show Designer
1 uses MIDI note messages to call scenes and shows. Six pages of scenes and one page of shows can be
called using MIDI note messages on a single MIDI channel. This gives you access to 96 scenes and 16
shows per MIDI channel. Note numbers 0-95 are used to call scenes and note numbers 96-111 are used to
call shows. MIDI only provides 128 notes per MIDI channel so that limits how many scenes and shows
can be called using a single channel.
Show Designer 1 will also send MIDI note messages whenever a scene or show is called using the front
panel switches. This allows you to use the Show Designer 1 as the source when recording a MIDI
performance. Rather than trying to calculate which note number to use for a scene, simply record the
output from the Show Designer 1 while calling scenes.
You can have access to more than 96 scenes by using extra MIDI channels. When you select the MIDI
channel from the setup menu you can also enable additional channels by setting “Extra Channels” to a
value of 1 - 9. When “Extra Channels” is set to 0, you will only receive on the selected MIDI channel.
When set to 1, you will receive on the selected MIDI channel as well as the next higher MIDI channel. You
can use up to 9 additional MIDI channels. Each channel will address six additional pages of scenes. If for
example you are using MIDI channel 1 and you have enabled 2 extra channels, scene pages 1-6 will use
MIDI channel 1, scene pages 7-12 will use MIDI channel 2 and scene pages 13-18 will use MIDI channel
3. Each MIDI channel will use the same note numbers 0-95.
When a MIDI note message is received it will call a scene or start a show that corresponds to that note
number. If the same note number is received while the scene or show is running, the scene or show will be
turned off. If a different note number is received, a new scene or show will replace the one that is running.
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Terry Martin

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2017, 02:01:39 pm »

Yeah, but I don’t have a “basic understanding of MIDI” - and don’t plan to, fit that matter.   But, it is not plug and play, as the video above showed (on an Obey). 

Both are documented in the manual:

Show designer 2:

MIDI
Show Designer 2 lets you trigger scenes with MIDI commands. The scene page and number is
encoded in a MIDI message that is sent to the Show Designer’s MIDI output when a scene is
selected using the number switches or the “go” switch. The “black” switch also sends a MIDI
message allowing you to record a blackout or blackout restore. If that same MIDI message is
returned to the MIDI input, that scene will be called. Since the Show Designer uses its own
type of MIDI message to record scene changes it is recommended that you use the Show
Designer to record the performance.
The Show Designer 2 uses MIDI continuous controller messages to send and receive scene
changes and blackouts.
The message format for scene changes is as follows:
0Bx pp nn, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), pp is the scene page (0-98
decimal) and nn is the scene number (0-47 decimal).
The message format for blackouts is as follows:
0Bx nn vv, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), nn equals 99 decimal and vv is
non zero for blackout on and zero for blackout off.

Show Designer 1:

MIDI
This manual assumes that you have a basic understanding of how MIDI works along with MDI messages
and MIDI channels.
With MIDI you can use a MIDI sequencer or MIDI keyboard to automate a performance. Show Designer
1 uses MIDI note messages to call scenes and shows. Six pages of scenes and one page of shows can be
called using MIDI note messages on a single MIDI channel. This gives you access to 96 scenes and 16
shows per MIDI channel. Note numbers 0-95 are used to call scenes and note numbers 96-111 are used to
call shows. MIDI only provides 128 notes per MIDI channel so that limits how many scenes and shows
can be called using a single channel.
Show Designer 1 will also send MIDI note messages whenever a scene or show is called using the front
panel switches. This allows you to use the Show Designer 1 as the source when recording a MIDI
performance. Rather than trying to calculate which note number to use for a scene, simply record the
output from the Show Designer 1 while calling scenes.
You can have access to more than 96 scenes by using extra MIDI channels. When you select the MIDI
channel from the setup menu you can also enable additional channels by setting “Extra Channels” to a
value of 1 - 9. When “Extra Channels” is set to 0, you will only receive on the selected MIDI channel.
When set to 1, you will receive on the selected MIDI channel as well as the next higher MIDI channel. You
can use up to 9 additional MIDI channels. Each channel will address six additional pages of scenes. If for
example you are using MIDI channel 1 and you have enabled 2 extra channels, scene pages 1-6 will use
MIDI channel 1, scene pages 7-12 will use MIDI channel 2 and scene pages 13-18 will use MIDI channel
3. Each MIDI channel will use the same note numbers 0-95.
When a MIDI note message is received it will call a scene or start a show that corresponds to that note
number. If the same note number is received while the scene or show is running, the scene or show will be
turned off. If a different note number is received, a new scene or show will replace the one that is running.



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Rich Grisier

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2017, 02:08:42 pm »

It's weird because, earlier, Rich Grisier mentionned somes issues he had with the Obey70...
It seems like it turned out quite good for this man. Little bit confused here...

The issue with the Obey 70 and MIDI foot controllers is the Obey 70 is controlled using Note On/Off commands.  Most midi foot controllers send just Program Change (PC) messages... some of the more advanced ones will also send Control Change (CC) messages.  Few are designed to send Note On/Off messages.  Fortunately, the FCB1010 can be set up to send Note On/Off messages.

The Obey 70 can do Scenes & Chase selection via MIDI... but it's what I'll call a 'Static Scene' controller.  By that I mean you can set up all your lights for a certain look then mark that as a scene, just as if you were to take a picture of it.  Then change color, mover position, etc... and then take another 'picture'.  Do this very tedious task 100 times and you now have 100 scenes.  You can then combine them into a Chase by going from one scene to another in some sequence like: 1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,5,2... Select that Chase and now your movers are moving from one scene to the next.  Tedious if you want movers to go in a box pattern (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4...) and maddening if you want them to go in a figure 8.

You could step up to a little better controller like an Elation Magic260.  It can handle movers better than the average Static Scene controller. It has built in programs for controlling movers with Circles, Figure-8's, Pans, Tilts.  This way you can define one scene that has the washes set to some static value while the movers are dynamic.  Impossible to do that with the Obey 70.

For a little more $ than the Magic260, you could go with a computer software setup (DMXIS, ShowDesigner, Freesyler, MPC) and have WAY more flexibility than the Obey 70 or the Magic260. That's probably why the Magic260 isn't available anymore.  Affordable flexible lighting control has migrated away from stand alone controllers towards computer based solutions.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2017, 02:18:31 pm »

Yoan:
   You are getting some good advice here and I agree about the controller advice, you likely could get most or all of what you currently want from a hardware controller but it is very likely you will be right up against one or more limitations of that controller at that point so any further improvements or additions you may want to make in the future will require a better controller at that point in time. So it makes a lot of sense to simply start out with a better controller, for what you plan to spend you can have a solid USB-DMX interface and there are now several free software packages that are vastly more capable than an entry level hardware controller.

But that wasn't the main thing I wanted to comment on. Is there any reason you have selected these traditional style Par can fixtures? One of the big upsides of LED lighting is that is can be much more compact than old skool pars which helps immensely with pack size and transportation.. and you would be giving that up with this selection. So LED flat pars of the same type would produce the same results and take up a lot less space, but I'm also going to suggest you move up to a better type of LED fixture as well. The basic thing about LEDs is the closer the individual silicon wafers are to one another the better a job they do at color mixing. So worst on that list are those that have a hugh panel of '80's vintage descrete LED diodes like those you selected, next up and significantly better are those that contain a smaller number of multi color(RGB, RGBW, RGBWA, etc) diodes on a flat panel such as this.. https://www.thomann.de/fr/stairville_quad_par_profile_5x8w_rgbw.htm
and then you get into COB technology which is better again because all of the raw diodes are clustered close together on a single small panel. https://www.thomann.de/fr/stairville_led_par_56_cob_rgbw_30w.htm You will notice with this version that it's back to a more traditional style par can again and that is because it uses a traditional reflector and lense. If you want a par can for it's look this is the way to go, but note that these cans have a wider beam angle than most of the other LED types so you may need less of them to flood a stage with color.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 02:26:06 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Yoan Geay

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2017, 03:25:51 pm »

Hey Paul !

Yeah, I'm still looking out for a better DMX Controller, just as I do not reject the Software Option either. In fact, I'm currently looking at a System that involves a Windows 10 Tablet, instead of a Computer.
[Some are Relatively Cheap], coupling this with the FCB1010. Any thoughts on that ?

[Keep in mind that I'm collecting informations for anyone that might be interested in some of the Options being discussed here, over another Option, Etc. If we can help many, & not just me, let's do it !]

So back in line, let me understand what you mean. [Please bear with me, as I'm totally new to this] ;)
When you say USB-DMX, what does it mean in terms of Hardware ?

As I'm guessing, does it mean that I'd have no more use of a DMX [Hardware] Controller ?
Because the Software would be the thing controlling my Fixtures ?
The Picture I have in mind at the moment is :
  • The Software.
  • The USB > DMX Cable to go from the Computer/Tablet to all of the Fixtures.
  • The MIDI > USB Cable to connect the FCB1010 to the Comupter/Tablet.

Do I get this correctly ? As simple as that ? It sounds really interesting considering the Tablet thing.
[It would need to have two USBs at least in that case]

----------------------------------------

Thank you for your feedback on the PARs, no particular reason behind my choice aside to Price, that it does RGBA & have good Reviews overall. But I get what you're saying on other Technologies (COB, Etc]. I will definitely look more into that.

PS : Rich, Scott & Terry, I've seen your contributions aswell, Thank you for the Input !
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:55:42 pm by Yoan Geay »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2017, 04:05:46 pm »


When you say USB-DMX, what does it mean in terms of Hardware ?

As I'm guessing, does it mean that I'd have no more use of a DMX [Hardware] Controller ?
Because the Software would be the thing controlling my Fixtures ?
The Picture I have in mind at the moment is :
  • The Software.
  • The USB > DMX to go from the Computer/Tablet to all of the Fixtures.
  • The MIDI > USB to connect the FCB1010 to the Comupter/Tablet.

Do I get this correctly ? It sounds really interesting considering the Tablet thing.
[It would need to have two USBs at least in that case]
That would do the Job, right ?

Yes you got it you don't need anything besides the computer(tablet) and your MIDI and DMX interfaces and the tablet is a great solution in a windows platform. These USB interfaces are getting more compact all the time now some are literally contained inside an XLR connector shell.. http://dmxking.com/usbdmx/ultradmxmicro
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