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Author Topic: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.  (Read 3337 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2018, 06:55:04 pm »

Is there a pull out fuse block in the fuse panel for the wall oven?  The typical fuse panel had 2 pull out blocks- one was the main over current protection, the other usually the oven then 4 ( or more if expansion blocks were used ) edsion type fuses for the 120 vac circuits.  Sometimes stuff got wired directly to the feed thru lugs so the only shut off is the main.
wow thank you... yes there is (ding ding ding....  winner winner chicken dinner) ...  ;D ;D

that would make my work tomorrow a lot easier than shutting down the whole casa... or hot wiring 240V  ::) ::)

I knew I hang out for some reason....  8) 8)

I have seen them before but never connected them to the oven... thought it was for the whole fuse box...

I'll report back manana. 

JR

@ Lyle I know I don't grok the whole plan... but my NCVT can confirm the oven drop is cold. I was going to tie it off, restore power and hump the heavy scrap metal around, than tie the new oven in with the power off again. Now it looks I can have lights while I work.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2018, 07:34:24 pm »

Please be careful, check & double check.  I'm trying to help you- not increase your local funeral home's January sales numbers.

FWIW, there would be no advantage to changing to a 4 wire branch circuit if you re-fed it from this fuse panel.  They were not intended to be used as subpanels- or maybe keeping ground and neutral separate wasn't a thing when they were being installed.  In any case, adding an isolated neutral would be a pain- if there is even room to do so.  I have never seen one where the ground and neutral were not connected.  So one more thing that is not, and realistically cannot be made to be code compliant.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 08:13:47 pm by Stephen Swaffer »
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Steve Swaffer

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2018, 10:20:09 pm »

Please be careful, check & double check.  I'm trying to help you- not increase your local funeral home's January sales numbers.
Ah.. the unintended consequence of giving advice.  Careful is my other middle name (do what I say... yadda yadda)..
Quote
FWIW, there would be no advantage to changing to a 4 wire branch circuit if you re-fed it from this fuse panel. 

I have wired my DIY grounds to this fuse box, are you suggesting it isn't bonded to neutral? I guess I can check (carefully).

Not gonna go 4 wire as long as my "real" electrician is incommunicado...  I will just replicate the previous tie in with tails hanging down behind a kitchen cupboard under the oven, but at least I will use proper wire nuts.  I tried to order a junction box with cover from Home depot but they seem tragically unable to complete my order. Home depot for some reason expects me to drive an hour each way to pick up a $1 metal box (I got some wire clamps in ups already, but without a box they are not much use.) I have a second box on order but unless it arrives tomorrow it is likely to become spare parts.  :o
Quote
They were not intended to be used as subpanels- or maybe keeping ground and neutral separate wasn't a thing when they were being installed.  In any case, adding an isolated neutral would be a pain- if there is even room to do so.  I have never seen one where the ground and neutral were not connected.  So one more thing that is not, and realistically cannot be made to be code compliant.
Code,,, I don't need no stinkin code....   Tying safety ground to neutral on a direct shot to the panel works for me.

I have two dual plug in cartridge fuses above the old school fuse box, so i suspect one is for the oven, other probably the fuse box. I'll know which and what tomorrow.

I expect the electrician to resurface maybe next week... but since he also does plumbing he has probably been fixing a lot of broken pipes lately, we had an unusually cold spell,  :o and they needed his help more than I did.  ;D

JR
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2018, 11:33:35 pm »

Tell me about it- I left Iowa to spend a week in Texas (south of Houston) thinking I'd have some nice weather.  An ice storm that would have been inconvenient at home shut the place down-and 15 hrs below freezing froze enough pipes to create a water shortage in Galveston.  Guess I'll go home and thaw out.

The neutrals and grounds are all tied together in that fuse box(actually most of the time those were being installed, no one ran ground wires all you had was neutrals) that means any voltage drop on the neutral feed will show up as a potential difference between anything using that panel for ground and anything using your main panel for ground.  Probably just a nuisance unless the neutral wire developes a bad connection then it can be a real hazard-the reason we use 4 wires now.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2018, 10:09:39 am »

Tell me about it- I left Iowa to spend a week in Texas (south of Houston) thinking I'd have some nice weather.  An ice storm that would have been inconvenient at home shut the place down-and 15 hrs below freezing froze enough pipes to create a water shortage in Galveston.  Guess I'll go home and thaw out.
Yes, we are just now emerging from a patch of unseasonably cold weather...  While out in my attached, but unheated laundry room roasting some coffee I noticed the thermometer was reading <20' inside... While I wasn't worried about my water heater freezing, later that day I checked my outdoor hose faucet and it was frozen solid. I ran the dryer about 20 minutes and got water flowing from my back faucet again.  :o   I have since determined the thermometer was reading low...but it's hard to debate water frozen solid.

For a little classic irony my foam faucet covers and pipe heater wrap (20W) were delivered literally the day after the cold snap broke and they were no longer urgently needed, but I'll be set for next 30 years.
Quote
The neutrals and grounds are all tied together in that fuse box(actually most of the time those were being installed, no one ran ground wires all you had was neutrals) that means any voltage drop on the neutral feed will show up as a potential difference between anything using that panel for ground and anything using your main panel for ground.  Probably just a nuisance unless the neutral wire developes a bad connection then it can be a real hazard-the reason we use 4 wires now.
Not a problem, before I started grounding stuff, nothing in my house was grounded. Now I have GFCI outlets and jury rigged grounds for hot water heater, dishwasher/washing machine and one kitchen outlet. I notice from how my NCVT reacts to the skin of my refrigerator that maybe it could use a grounded outlet too.

======

OK back on topic... I pulled the cartridge fuse for my oven so now I can work on it safely with lights, music, and hot coffee in my kitchen (now all I need to do is lift that puppy, but with the door removed it should be possible for even an old man)...

So thanks again. It's obvious in hindsight like most hindsight is.  ::)

JR

[update] I didn't want anybody to worry about me... the new oven is in and wired up, clock is set and oven works.  8) No humans were harmed during this "tired old house" episode.  I thought lifting it would be the hard part, but the fit in the opening it too tight to get an arm in and the pigtail is too short to feed through before lifting. ::) But I am a clever monkey and got er dun. If my electrician ever shows up I may have him mount a junction box back there. The one I ordered didn't show up, and the small plastic 1u switch box I had can't accept real wire.  I was tempted to re-use the very old school brass screw clamps, but I had wire nuts that should be better. Thanx everyone for the concern and advice. [/update]
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 02:57:58 pm by John Roberts {JR} »
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Lyle Williams

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2018, 03:03:46 pm »

You could have gone quiet for a few days as a gag....  :-)
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2018, 03:38:21 pm »

You could have gone quiet for a few days as a gag....  :-)

"Tonight's special is 'JR a la arc flash', cooked between tartar and very well done."

or the headline -

"Hickory man wires old redneck, blaze ensues"

I'll be here all week, folks!  Try the JR!

/sarc, satire, etc
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2018, 03:45:14 pm »

"Tonight's special is 'JR a la arc flash', cooked between tartar and very well done."

or the headline -

"Hickory man wires old redneck, blaze ensues"

I'll be here all week, folks!  Try the JR!

/sarc, satire, etc
My house has tried to kill me before, like when the water heater energized my shower water....  :o

My smoke detector works just fine, so I should be OK...

Of course you never see the bullet coming that gets you.  8)

JR
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2018, 03:59:28 pm »

My house has tried to kill me before, like when the water heater energized my shower water....  :o

My smoke detector works just fine, so I should be OK...

Of course you never see the bullet coming that gets you.  8)

JR

"Her name's Christine..."
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2018, 05:03:33 pm »

"Her name's Christine..."
I think I knew her, but you could see her coming.

JR 
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