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Author Topic: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.  (Read 3340 times)

Stephen Swaffer

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 10:01:34 am »

For years ovens were "grounded" with the 3rd wire since the only load on it was a clock or maybe control electronics.  This is still permitted in a grandfathered install and most new ovens have a jumper you have to install/ remove as needed to bond to the neutral.  Essentially a kinda sorta legal bootleg ground. No doubt there is an additional safety factor with a ground- but a typical oven circuit requires a min #10 ground
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Tom Bourke

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 10:58:26 am »

Then there was the house I rented years ago.  The kitchen outlets were grounded via the gas stove power cord.  Looked like some one had upgraded the kitchen outlets and connected all the grounds together but never completed the connection back to the fuse box.  The stove was grounded via its gas pipe connection. :o
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 11:14:14 am »

I found what looks like a real electrician a few miles up the road... I have time to start checking him out.

A new drop would be the "right" thing to do... Wouldn't hurt to have a proper grounded outlet in the kitchen to replace my DIY safety grounds. Well it would hurt my wallet.

JR



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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 11:17:16 am »

Then there was the house I rented years ago.  The kitchen outlets were grounded via the gas stove power cord.  Looked like some one had upgraded the kitchen outlets and connected all the grounds together but never completed the connection back to the fuse box.  The stove was grounded via its gas pipe connection. :o
I have experience with that.... plug a bad outlet strip with leaky protection devices into that outlet and you energize every appliance chassis ground in the kitchen...

I was even feeling electricity between appliances exterior metal parts and my sink/counter top (yes, wood counter??).

JR
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 02:11:38 pm »

when I built my house I had preach been down the how do you plug in the stove when the outlet is behind the stove path.  I made a nice neat hole in the floor and installed the stove outlet in the basement near the hole.  Now I tie a rope to the stove plug and drop the other end down the hole and slide the stove in place.

The hot and cold water shut off is down there as well nice and easy to get to.

Not to Code.   The outlet has to be in the same room.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 05:30:38 pm »

Not to Code.   The outlet has to be in the same room.

You will note that my signature is "Not to code". 

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Not to Code

Tim McCulloch

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2017, 05:54:20 pm »

You will note that my signature is "Not to code".

You, sir, are fast on the irony uptake. ;)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2017, 06:04:27 pm »

My house should be named "not to code".

Today I caught up with my local (real) electrician when he was across the street at the post office... He agrees we should probably put in a new 4 wire drop for the oven. He would like to put in a new panel too but agrees it is not an immediate problem.

I probably won't start shopping ovens seriously until after new years, and need to spec out the oven before specing the wire ampacity for the drop.

There are two 240V leads into the open junction box under the stove top so unclear what is coming/going exactly where.

JR

 
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 09:12:55 pm »

My house should be named "not to code".

Today I caught up with my local (real) electrician when he was across the street at the post office... He agrees we should probably put in a new 4 wire drop for the oven. He would like to put in a new panel too but agrees it is not an immediate problem.

I probably won't start shopping ovens seriously until after new years, and need to spec out the oven before specing the wire ampacity for the drop.

There are two 240V leads into the open junction box under the stove top so unclear what is coming/going exactly where.

JR

Why not just run #6 NM and put in a 14-50R?  You can save a few bucks if your range only needs 30 or 40 amps-but it will be the same labor to run #10, #8 or #6.

I know everyine has a budget to live by-I used to be OK with fuse boxes because I have never seen a fuse not blow-but I have seen plenty of breakrs that won't shut off. (sorry for all the negatives-hopefully it makes sense!)

However, in the last 2 years I have come across a couple of fuse boxes where the fiber insulating washer in the socket is disintegrating.  When that happens, you don't need a penny to bypass the fuse-you just screw a fuse (good or bad) in good and tight.  It's a pretty nasty failure mode becasue it is very difficult to detect.  Given the length of time since edison fuses have been prohibited in new installs by the NEC, any fuse box has some serious age on it.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: danger Will Robinson... old red neck wiring.
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 10:01:59 pm »

Why not just run #6 NM and put in a 14-50R?  You can save a few bucks if your range only needs 30 or 40 amps-but it will be the same labor to run #10, #8 or #6.
I don't recognize what you just wrote...  The electrician was suggesting bigger than #10... I will see after I figure which oven I get... The last one lasted 50 years...so enough will be enough.
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I know everyine has a budget to live by-I used to be OK with fuse boxes because I have never seen a fuse not blow-but I have seen plenty of breakrs that won't shut off. (sorry for all the negatives-hopefully it makes sense!)
When I first moved in there were 30A fuses or bigger in some branches. I now have everything working on 15A fuses and can blow a 15A if i run the microwave and kettle at the same time, so I don't do that. (I think 20a is max current per branch per code, 15A per plug blade and 20a for the wire).
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However, in the last 2 years I have come across a couple of fuse boxes where the fiber insulating washer in the socket is disintegrating.  When that happens, you don't need a penny to bypass the fuse-you just screw a fuse (good or bad) in good and tight.  It's a pretty nasty failure mode becasue it is very difficult to detect.  Given the length of time since edison fuses have been prohibited in new installs by the NEC, any fuse box has some serious age on it.
Good to know I will check, but not aware of any issues yet.  I have replaced several (old) outlets in the casa that were flaky.

JR
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