Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ivan Beaver]

With a sub left and right of stage, 50% of the energy still goes backwards.

Chris

Yeah-but there is less overall energy on the center of the stage, usually where it is the biggest problem

[Ivan Beaver]

FWIW:
Don't try to solve it like a lot of people do by using a rear-firing element aka cardioid setup and then pushing it back up against the stage. It doesn't work.

I measured a setup last week where the local tech and the installer swore that having a cardioid setup reduced the sub level significantly up on stage.
The measured difference on stage was 2 dB compared to a omni setup. At some frequencies.

They even had the national distributor verify that the correct presets were loaded (they were) and that the wiring was correct (it was).

Agreed.

Directional subs work best when they are a good distance away from boundaries, simply due to the very nature of the "effect".

Often it is best to use subs that have natural directivity in which the levels are lower in the rear, without using cancellation techniques.

[Michael Hogeland]

Holy sub placement Batman.  You guys really know you stuff.  I am light years behind apparently.  But eager to catch up!! 

Modeling a room?  Using a program to do so?  Well, I guess for where we're normally playing it doesn't really apply since there's always a stage that we have to set-up on.  Putting speakers in other parts of the bar might be met with enthusiasm, but it also might be met with angry owners/workers who find the sub is now in the way of their walk-way to the smoking area or something. 

We're in the bar scene 95% of the time; so getting to set the speakers anywhere but in front of the stage seems unlikely.  Though it does seem on occasion I'll be able to try out the coupled subs dead center on the floor.  I know at least 2 rooms we play in that I could easily accomplish that set up; though how it will sound is still something I'll have to wait and see. 

New amp plugged in and bumping in the basement last night!  I turned it down/off at some point because I was pretty much done testing and I hear my wife from the kitchen "awww!!  I was having a dance party up here!"  HA!  It's nice to have the support of your loved ones instead of the "can you turn that OFF".

Current research includes:
High/Low pass filter types:  BUT6, BUT12, etc...
Room Modeling

While setting up the NU3000dsp last night the "manual" was less than helpful.  It fully explained a lot that I already knew, and then merely referred to a bunch I didn't understand.  In the end, I kind of shot from the hip. 

I'm running stereo in to the AMP from the mixer; left channel out to (2) PV115 mains, right out to (2) previously mentioned 800w subs.  HI/LOW pass filters set at 120 on both - sending anything above 120 to the mains, below to the subs of course.  It asked what TYPE of pass filters to use, I just chose the first in a list of at least a half-dozen.  BUT6 is what I'm using on both Hi and Low pass.

Thank you to everyone here who has helped me understand these weirdly boxed subs - I think that aesthetics was probably a huge part of the reasoning behind EV's decision as someone else here already stated.  Now I'm off to work....

[Michael Hogeland]

Update - the different filter types are Butterworth and Linkwitz-Riley.  Now it's just a matter of discovering the differences therein. 

[Dennis Wiggins]

Update - the different filter types are Butterworth and Linkwitz-Riley.  Now it's just a matter of discovering the differences therein.

I am no expert, but here is my advice. It's enough to get you started and won't break anything.

In General: 

Use Butterworth (BW) at the low and high extremes, and use Linkowitz-Riley (LR) at the crossover point(s).

Example:

Set high-pass for sub (low extreme) at 40Hz/BW48  (the steep drop is to eliminate over excursion of the sub driver)

Set Crossover point for subs and tops at 100Hz/LR24 *

Set high-cutoff to 16kHz/BW48  (I just do it... it doesn't hurt)

Others (more knowledgeable than I) are welcomed to point out any "errors of my ways". 

-Dennis

*   I often use a gap here (ex: crossover at 90 subs/105Hz tops) when sending subs a signal that is significantly stronger than that sent the highs. This is to minimize overlap at the crossover point. I have never measured this, but my ears tell me it works. I could be all wet on this.   

[Chrysander 'C.R.' Young]

I'm running stereo in to the AMP from the mixer; left channel out to (2) PV115 mains, right out to (2) previously mentioned 800w subs.  HI/LOW pass filters set at 120 on both - sending anything above 120 to the mains, below to the subs of course.  It asked what TYPE of pass filters to use, I just chose the first in a list of at least a half-dozen.  BUT6 is what I'm using on both Hi and Low pass.

When the NU-DSP series amps are in bi-amp mode, they are only amplifying the signal received on input A.  Input B is ignored.  The inputs are NOT summed.  Check pages 15-16 (section 4.1) of the manual.

[John L Nobile]

I try to center cluster my subs when I can, especially outdoors, for the reasons described in the article you referenced.  Once indoors, everything changes. 

Everyone has different methods, seems the folks in your area don't subscribe to that thinking for one of many reasons, but I assure you that this is done in the real world when it makes sense to do so. 


Here's a good read for you:
http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?id=8913

 be quoted for....  "It depends". But either way, EV designed those subwoofers to be used the way you're using them with the pole cup on top and grille facing the audience.

That was a good read. I found something at the end that I've never heard of.

"The Butterworth Tweak"

11. (Butterworth crossovers only). Apply the Butterworth Tweak. Increase or decrease the delay
by the following amount:
Crossover freq Tweak (mSec)
70 3.57
80 3.13
90 2.78
100 2.50
The rule about whether to increase or decrease the delay is a bit complicated. The best
procedure is to try both and choose whichever gives the best coverage.

Anyone know anything about this???

[Michael Hogeland]

When the NU-DSP series amps are in bi-amp mode, they are only amplifying the signal received on input A.  Input B is ignored.  The inputs are NOT summed.  Check pages 15-16 (section 4.1) of the manual.

Seriously?  My ears tell me otherwise.  The recording of Vehicle, by Ides of march, splits the vocals to the left, and the horns to the right (or vise versa) - so how I had been wiring my speakers in the past (only using the "LEFT" out of the mixer) left that song sounding VERY stupid.  I tested this song specifically last night because of this.  I heard everything for once. 

Thank you Dennis, good call on the BW48 high/low cuts.  But I don't know if I'm missing something in the setup screens or what because I didn't see a specific 'crossover' section, just high and low pass areas.  I can set a high AND a low for each channel, I suppose that might be what you mean.  That would make sense to me.  The low cut @40hz w/BW48, Low pass @ 100hz w/LR. 

[Paul G. OBrien]

With 15" mains I'd suggest an 80hz LR24 crossover and a BW24 high pass at 40hz as recommended by the manufacturer. I have never used a low pass at the very top end of the spectrum because it's simply not necessary if there is even 1 piece of digital equipment in the signal chain.. there is already a super steep filter in place at about 20khz, and IMO less is more.

[Michael Hogeland]

I figure as far as where the actual crossover is concerned I'll likely play around with the frequency a bit once I've got our actual band plugged into the system.  Last nights test was only commercial recorded music - I'm sure there are some differences. 

I'm targeting as low as 80; and as high as 120, but with the LR24 instead of what I chose (pretty much at random) last night, the BW6.  The PV 15's are rated to handle as low as 46hz.  Of course we all know how accurate all the ratings are in manufacturer spec listings.     @120 like I had it set last night with the long slope of the BW6 the 15's were still handling a lot of bass; I had planned to hit the web today for research to figure out the next plan of attack.  And you guys did NOT disappoint!!

Tonight I'll be putting the low cut for the subs at 40hz w/BW24, crossover somewhere between 80 and 120 with the LR24 - may or may not add the extreme high cut.  As someone said - it doesn't hurt anything to do it.    So I'll probably program that in there now just in case.  Every once in a while I run my trumpet through an multi-effects pedal; or we add a synth from time to time.  Both of those things can create some weird high freq sounds (lows too); so an ounce of prevention and all that.

[ProSoundWeb Community]