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[Don T. Williams]

Anyone know what the selling point was for the "sideways" speaker mount?  Size?  Acoustics?  Weight distribution?  Protection of the cone?

I believe the main reason was to get the 18" driver to fit into such a narrow box.  I suspect they wanted the sub box to match the width of the Eliminator full range cabinets for a better look or to get more height for the "stack".  There may have also been some economies with cutting the wood to minimize waste, but that's just a hunch. 

[Jeremy Young]

I try to center cluster my subs when I can, especially outdoors, for the reasons described in the article you referenced.  Once indoors, everything changes. 

Everyone has different methods, seems the folks in your area don't subscribe to that thinking for one of many reasons, but I assure you that this is done in the real world when it makes sense to do so. 


Here's a good read for you:
http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?id=8913


Sometimes stage height is too low for this, or sometimes there's a lack of space directly in front of stage lip (makeshift dance floor, seating area, walking path, etc).  Sometimes that extra low end on stage saves me from placing a sub under the drummers wedge, or a sub for the DJ if there is one.  Depends on the type of event/performance.
 
Once you're in multiple-cabinet territory you can start to play with directional subwoofer arrays to to mitigate this "more bass center stage" issue that comes for free with the center clustered arrangement, but that also requires sufficient set up time, DSP and amplifier channels, and physical space around the cabinets.  Then there's the question of time alignment when there's such a physical difference in placement between the mains and subs...which is for another discussion entirely.

As Ivan will forever be quoted for....  "It depends". But either way, EV designed those subwoofers to be used the way you're using them with the pole cup on top and grille facing the audience.

[Tim McCulloch]

I try to center cluster my subs when I can, especially outdoors, for the reasons described in the article you referenced.  Once indoors, everything changes. 

Everyone has different methods, seems the folks in your area don't subscribe to that thinking for one of many reasons, but I assure you that this is done in the real world when it makes sense to do so. 


Here's a good read for you:
http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?id=8913


Sometimes stage height is too low for this, or sometimes there's a lack of space directly in front of stage lip (makeshift dance floor, seating area, walking path, etc).  Sometimes that extra low end on stage saves me from placing a sub under the drummers wedge, or a sub for the DJ if there is one.  Depends on the type of event/performance.
 
Once you're in multiple-cabinet territory you can start to play with directional subwoofer arrays to to mitigate this "more bass center stage" issue that comes for free with the center clustered arrangement, but that also requires sufficient set up time, DSP and amplifier channels, and physical space around the cabinets.  Then there's the question of time alignment when there's such a physical difference in placement between the mains and subs...which is for another discussion entirely.

As Ivan will forever be quoted for....  "It depends". But either way, EV designed those subwoofers to be used the way you're using them with the pole cup on top and grille facing the audience.

The Danley TH-Mini is a neat little sub and its compactness makes it ideal to build directional arrays with.  Having more smaller subs (singles instead of doubles) and the amplifier channels to have 1 sub per can let you do different types of arrays depending on your needs or available space.

That said, there's not much in the way of ground-based deployments that keep LF out of the middle of the stage until you get into delay-based steering of left/right subs (and I've done this for artists who don't like the stage shaking under them).  Any time you center cluster the subs, the down stage is on the back half of the subwoofer radiating pattern**.  Put subs left & right?  Gonna be a power alley - you can move it around but it will be there, somewhere.  Subs on 1 side only?  Time alignment with tops on the other side?

Everything is a compromise once you have more than a single loudspeaker.  As the Audio Adult In the Room, it's up to us to decide where the sweet spot is and where the suckage goes.

** edit ps.  I've put a "reversed sub, flipped polarity cardioid" array down front center, but I had the depth to do it.  You can't jam it up against or under the stage and have the cancellation work correctly.

[Dennis Wiggins]

So, I picked up a pair of these EV Eliminator Sub cabinets.  The drivers have been upgraded...

BTW - If you have the opportunity to acquire another pair of empty Eliminator cabs, I have a pair of the original EV drivers FS in the Marketplace.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,165622.0.html

-Dennis

[Ivan Beaver]

Good deal Ivan, thanks for the advice. 

Did I miss a reply somewhere?  If yes, apologies for asking twice, but I read back through the replies and didn't see it.  Possible it got deleted because I didn't follow the naming rules at first. 

Cheers gents - I'll keep the subs upright and facing won't matter - and left/center/right is personal/room based; more than likely not a huge deal. And per Tim might even be a stage volume hindrance placing them at the center. 

Good information for this newbie to get started!

Well I did reply, but it is not there now-oops.

[Ivan Beaver]

That said, there's not much in the way of ground-based deployments that keep LF out of the middle of the stage until you get into delay-based steering of left/right subs (and I've done this for artists who don't like the stage shaking under them). 

Yeah, sometimes artists HATE low freq on stage-especially most upright bass players in bluegrass bands.

I did a show a couple of years ago (3 day festival) with all sorts of different bands, a good number being bluegrass.

I did a 3 position (left center right) setup of caridoid subs to keep the energy off of the stage.

I got the measurements of the previous years layout and modeled it until I was happy.

I got there, set it up and listened.  The level on stage was lower-but not as much as I wanted.

So I compared the actual stage to my predictions.  The stage was a different size.  So I changed the layout in the model for the new stage dimensions (and corresponding speaker layout), and THEN it all came together.


On stage you would swear that the subs were not turned on.  It made for a very clean sound.

YES, there were some lobes sticking out everywhere (as there are whenever you steer sound), but where I wanted it to be low it was.  This was outdoors, so the lobes were not an issue.

Simply "doing a caridiod setup" is NOT always enough.  You MUST model for a specific layout and look at what is going on to get the best results.

[Mark Wilkinson]

Simply "doing a caridiod setup" is NOT always enough.  You MUST model for a specific layout and look at what is going on to get the best results.

Hi Ivan, you're one of my gurus for when we have the time to measure, setup, re-measure, and re-setup...
But modeling at the lounge level ? Or even having the time for the above......
In my mind, 'lounge' is almost a synonym for impromptu....

[Ivan Beaver]

Hi Ivan, you're one of my gurus for when we have the time to measure, setup, re-measure, and re-setup...
But modeling at the lounge level ? Or even having the time for the above......
In my mind, 'lounge' is almost a synonym for impromptu....

It only takes a couple of minutes to do a simple direct coverage model.

It depends on whether it is important or not and what you are trying to achieve from a model.

I like to put mics in different parts of the room to see what the actual response is, not having to rely on mapping at different freq.

Many manufacturers have free modeling programs.  Some are harder/slower than others, some are only 2D (which can give very misleading results-especially on flown loudspeakers), so it really depends on what you are using.

But a couple of speakers on a simple plane should be able to be done in well under 10 minutes.  In many cases just 2 or 3 minutes.

Sometimes it takes longer to order a beer-------

[Chris Grimshaw]

Center placement of subwoofers will "throw" 50% of the energy RIGHT BACK ONTO THE STAGE.  How much of your audience is on stage with you?  There are worse things than the "power alley" you allude to...

Everything - and I mean EVERYTHING - about speaker placement is a compromise once you use more that 1 loudspeaker.

With a sub left and right of stage, 50% of the energy still goes backwards.

Chris

[Helge A Bentsen]

With a sub left and right of stage, 50% of the energy still goes backwards.

Chris

FWIW:
Don't try to solve it like a lot of people do by using a rear-firing element aka cardioid setup and then pushing it back up against the stage. It doesn't work.

I measured a setup last week where the local tech and the installer swore that having a cardioid setup reduced the sub level significantly up on stage.
The measured difference on stage was 2 dB compared to a omni setup. At some frequencies.

They even had the national distributor verify that the correct presets were loaded (they were) and that the wiring was correct (it was).

[ProSoundWeb Community]