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Author Topic: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P  (Read 439 times)

Nathan Riddle

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3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« on: December 05, 2017, 09:15:23 pm »

So, yeah; I don't do social media...cept I'm trying to help others a bit.

Came across this post (details below). So I modeled it... rather interesting results.

At first I thought Brent was right, now I'm leaning the other way (more of a neutral). Here's why:

1) Behringer was measured in full space. So not 122dB rather 128dB, so 3x would be 137.54 rather than the 122dB x3 or: 131.54 dB

2) Models in Direct produced some decent side reduction which might help with room interaction? Unknown if that is because of the TH118's forward directivity or not.

Questions:

1) Isn't a single ELX118P a better buy than 3x B1200D-Pro's ?

2) What on earth is Jimmy Fleming trying to say with his points:

a) There's several reasons why a 12" or multiples, would work better in a room than an 18".
b) If your wanting tighter, punchier bottom end, or perhaps you're dealing with standing waves that the customer is unwilling, for whatever reason, to remedy by room design and/or acoustic treatment, then smaller speaker may very well be in order.
c) Granted they won't produce the boom (or whatever you want to call it) that an 18" will, but they also won't be as flabby.

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Behringer Eurolive B1200D-PRO 500W 12" Powered Subwoofer
12" 500W Powered Subwoofer with Class-D Power Amp, Built-in Crossover, and Variable High-cut Filter

B1200D specs??

B1200D Product Page

vs

Electro Voice ELX118P 700w 18" POWERED SUBWOOFER

ELX118P Specs

ELX118P Product Page

-------

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Brent N Tamara Evans
While these are certainly inexpensive, the value is lost if you need more than one. While peak spl specs aren't ever completely realistic, they provide a baseline for determining relative output. The Behringer has a peak output of 122db. Three of them would be 132db, two would be 128db. The EV ELX118p is 134db peak output by itself, and has a MAP of $700. This is just ONE example.
http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=1068

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Brian Norwood
Seriously, you can see a 10 x 6 foot pic of the front of his stage and determine what his room needs? That is amazing. Also, most PAs I have seen have multiple subs, so they all must suck, right?

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Sam A. Beaumier
all I'll say is, you're sort of right. Sometimes coverage (should they want to play with how they're deploying these subs, and potentially not in this instance, is just as important : )

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Brent N Tamara Evans
I said nothing of the sort. I said that the Behringer works well as a single solution. Rather than buy two of them, though, a single EV will perform better in every way. If you then need more, you go to double 18 boxes, or multiple singles. It is no surprise that an 18 has far more output than a 12, right?

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Jeff Alexander
There were lots of other products considered... these 3 were the best match for space, location, price and performance

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Nathan Riddle
The point is though, you can get a better single sub for the same or less. When getting more than 1 you are wasting the churches money.

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Jimmy Fleming
So by your statement you made, one can only guess that you've been in his room and assessed their needs and the room thoroughly. If not, than I'm guessing your basing your statement on the fact that you own or have worked with the EV and liked it.

There's several reasons why a 12" or multiples, would work better in a room than an 18". On the reverse side of that coin, there's several reasons when an 18" would do better.

If your wanting tighter, punchier bottom end, or perhaps you're dealing with standing waves that the customer is unwilling, for whatever reason, to remedy by room design and/or acoustic treatment, then smaller speaker may very well be in order. Granted they won't produce the boom (or whatever you want to call it) that an 18" will, but they also won't be as flabby. But to simply assume that your statement is correct based on this picture...

Obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinions but to think that yours is right and his is wrong, in this case is just not an accurate assumption, unless, as i mentioned earlier, you've been in room for a consultation and assessment. If so, please share your findings. If not, then unfortunately, you or I neither one have any idea what his room requires to perform the best.

I had a guy this last year, unwilling to pay travel expenses and a consulting fee, want me to design a system for his room based solely on pictures and what he can tell me. I refused, as trying to attempt something like that would have been ludicrous at best. He could have offered me the world, and I still would have said no thank you.

You mentioned peak output... Not quite following your point there. While peak is important for sure, there are many other specs to weigh that are far more important when determining what needs to happen in a room. If you're just worried about moving air, three 12's will move more than a single 18" in most cases.

I've installed and or used 18's, 15's and 12's, single and multiple boxes throughout my career. Always based on the acoustics of the room and the customer's goals and expectations, with the exception of tours where we obviously had to make do with what we had and make it work it's best in the venue. Even then, while sourcing the system, I tried to make it kind of like a Lego system, where we could do different configurations depending on the venue.

Heck, more recently I've installed a fairly new 2x10" long excursion box that just walks the dog! It's a weather proof box, but is aesthetically pleasing so I've even installed it in a very interesting room... They were just what the doctor ordered.

I'll leave you with this thought...

One Size Does Not Got All

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Brent N Tamara Evans
Once again, I made no comment whatsoever on that install in that room. I compared one box's raw performance with another. Peak output is a bogus number but they are generally all compiled similarly.

For ported boxes, Output is determined solely by driver displacement at xmax.

With active boxes, you don't get sensitivity or power handling specs, or Thiele-small parameters on the driver, but you do get the calculation of peak spl... which is generally defined as the sensitivity of the driver multiplied by peak amplifier power. While there is certainly a margin for error, the numbers are roughly comparable.

In the setup pictured, which is three 12" subs clustered together, I have no problem making a general statement that a single 18 with the specs of the EV would work better and cost less.

If it were a distributed placement, or a cardioid array, the answer would be different. I have, as you obviously have, designed many different systems for different rooms with different products. This is not and was not about that.

Since, though. Everyone seems to desire a comment about it, I will say that The original post was basically one that stated "hey this sub is so great check it out" and pictured three very entry level low performance subs with a combined price of $900 clustered together.

The single $700 Ev ABSOLUTELY would outperform the cluster of 3 Behringers IN THAT CONFIGURATION.

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Jeff Alexander
Nathan, they had a single 18 powered EV to start with, and it didn't work in the space. And yes, there were other options, but we tested these in the room, they worked well, they fit the space, and the congregation is pleased.

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Jimmy Fleming
I guess I don't follow "I made no comment whatsoever on that install in that room", since the op was all about that install in that room. What other conclusion can one come to...

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Brent N Tamara Evans
The original post was not about a particular install, but promotion of a particular product that had been used by the OP in a number of situations. The photo was an example. At no place did the OP discuss any specific install, just the product.

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Jimmy Fleming
Just reread the op, you are correct about it not being for a particular install Brent...I stand corrected
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 09:21:51 pm by Nathan Riddle »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 09:54:22 pm »


1) Behringer was measured in full space. So not 122dB rather 128dB, so 3x would be 137.54 rather than the 122dB x3 or: 131.54 dB

2) Models in Direct produced some decent side reduction which might help with room interaction? Unknown if that is because of the TH118's forward directivity or not.
What do TH118s have to do with this discussion?

Questions:

1) Isn't a single ELX118P a better buy than 3x B1200D-Pro's ?
Depends.. if you are more interested in resale value or acoustic results.

2) What on earth is Jimmy Fleming trying to say with his points:
I think he's saying the three 12's are the better solution and I would agree mainly because no way a single ELX118p can hit 132dB, the general consensus on this box is it's pretty good sounding but it doesn't get very loud and the math backs that up. The driver(same one used in the passive version) has a rated sensitivity of 96dB which means it can only hit about 125dB continuous with 700w.



« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 09:56:39 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 10:24:35 pm »

What do TH118s have to do with this discussion?

They are an excellent all around surrogate sub for use in modeling.

Depends.. if you are more interested in resale value or acoustic results.

Acoustic results?

I think he's saying the three 12's are the better solution and I would agree mainly because no way a single ELX118p can hit 132dB, the general consensus on this box is it's pretty good sounding but it doesn't get very loud and the math backs that up. The driver(same one used in the passive version) has a rated sensitivity of 96dB which means it can only hit about 125dB continuous with 700w.

That same logic can be applied to the behringer sub... The point remains, using the peak value of both subs would be indicative of a best case scenario (because the manufacture wants that magic fake number we all know about). Comparing subs using a simplified best case scenario 'peak numbers' game will help make the discussion easier, and in theory the actual results will follow those findings.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 11:09:54 pm »

So what is your opinion then? Using peak numbers the three 12s still get louder and that is considered "better" for most. I'd rather have an EV sub than a Behringer but if it doesn't deliver the results needed then what is the point.
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Nathan Riddle

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 08:24:32 am »

So what is your opinion then?

Using peak numbers the three 12s still get louder and that is considered "better" for most. I'd rather have an EV sub than a Behringer but if it doesn't deliver the results needed then what is the point.

Probably EV too. I'd want the lower extension & higher SQ and ultimately louder if/when I get a 2nd one. Though I'd probably want the EKX for same price as 3x Behringers

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Deviating from the EV vs Behringer specifically.

I guess prior to finding out the Behringers were measured in full space (when the outputs would have been similar) I saw zero advantages with the 3x subs vs 1x sub. But now I see some (mainly the reduced side output).

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That flows into more of a general discussion:

What advantages do 3x 12" subs have over a 1x 18" subs?
(if they had same output & price tag [but different responses])

Does the whole idea that 3x 12" sound better than 1x 18" hold merit?

----

Lastly, I messed up uploading the images of my model.

Rather interesting results when pushing the subs to the same levels
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 03:45:03 pm »

Probably EV too. I'd want the lower extension & higher SQ and ultimately louder if/when I get a 2nd one. Though I'd probably want the EKX for same price as 3x Behringers
Yes.. I own a pair of the EKX18sp's and they are a very good sounding sub.


Does the whole idea that 3x 12" sound better than 1x 18" hold merit?

Sound quality is such a subjective topic. Personally I like the sound of 18" subs but I have met more than a few people working in this industry comment that they like the sound of a 15" sub over that of an 18" because they tend to be a little tighter sounding. Without a doubt there are subtle differences in output, I frequently cross rent different model Yorkville subs and i have to say my favorites are the single and dual 15 ParaLine subs because they go remarkably low and loud for such compact boxes. But I'm not a fan of the dual 12 box at all, it does get loud for a small box but IMO it doesn't sound right, I don't think it has as broad a response as the larger subs so despite it's tight punchy sound it's missing the low notes. The single 18 sounds fine but is otherwise unremarkable, it's a better size and shape than the dual driver boxes but produces nowhere close to as much SPL as the dual 15.


What advantages do 3x 12" subs have over a 1x 18" subs? (if they had same output & price tag [but different responses])

I can see 2 things.. a more compact form factor that may be beneficial in some applications and the ability for some pattern control with either a single cluster or with cabs separated a little or a lot.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 05:41:23 am »

Some thoughts:

- 3x 12"s have more cone area than a single 18". If the drivers have the same amount of linear cone travel, the 12"s will be louder down low.
- 3x 12"s have the option to go for cardioid or other configurations
- All the talk about flabby/tight/whatever bass IMO confuses things. Something that sounds "powerful" to me might sound "boomy" to you.
- A particular cone size doesn't have an inherent "sound". All other things being equal, an 18" cab will be tuned lower than a 15", which will be tuned lower than a 12".
- Having looked at the datasheet for the passive version of that EV 18", I don't like it any more - they're using >10dB boost down low to get the response flat. The low-range sensitivity on that cabinet is below 90dB@1w IIRC, which would explain why people say it won't get particularly loud.

Chances are the 3x 12"s will get louder within their range than the single 18" - they have a higher tuning (means you don't need to move as much air), and more cone area. There'll likely be more headroom in the "punch" region, 60-100Hz, which might well be right where the operator wants it. Now, if they were playing something where the bass drops low, the 3x 12"s would probably be found lacking.
I did an event recently where the bass dropped and it set off around 50Hz, went down a couple of tones and held at 40Hz solidly (watching on the RTA). Some of the tracks were showing as much content at 31Hz as at 40Hz. The 3x 12"s would probably miss that lot entirely, while the 18" would certainly have a go at the lower notes.

So yes, I can imagine that their little sub array might well be better for them in their situation with their program material. That doesn't make it the best sub system ever, but it does mean they've found something that works for them.

Chris
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David Morison

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 09:31:16 am »

Does the whole idea that 3x 12" sound better than 1x 18" hold merit?

Nope.

There are too many factors beyond simply cone size that determine what "sounds better" to reduce it to something as simple as that.

Driver quality, optimum matching of cabinet size/tuning to driver, cabinet construction, amount of distortion (as Chris G alluded to , excursion & LF boost to get flat will play a part here), room acoustics, integration with the rest of the sound system, your personal taste, what you had for breakfast, all can affect how you perceive sound.

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Lastly, I messed up uploading the images of my model.

Rather interesting results when pushing the subs to the same levels

Remember the TH118 is a lot wider than the 12" Behri's, so to get a fair, like for like comparison you'd need to model the same width of emitter, not the same number of boxes.

HTH,
David.
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Rob Spence

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 12:52:37 pm »

Nope.

There are too many factors beyond simply cone size that determine what "sounds better" to reduce it to something as simple as that.

...

HTH,
David.

Note that the Lab sub has 12 drivers and a big box.
It goes low and loud.



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David Morison

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Re: 3x B1200D-PRO vs 1x ELX118P
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 06:14:27 pm »

Note that the Lab sub has 12 drivers and a big box.
It goes low and loud.

Indeed, and it's a brilliant example of many of the factors I mentioned coming together properly - carefully specified drivers, a well designed horn, needs built very carefully to get it right, vastly bigger and heavier then either of the boxes initially mentioned by Nathan, so of course it'll kick their asses when it comes to producing more, lower, cleaner bass, where it can realistically be deployed.

My point was more that we can't generalize from any single example like that to say that 12" based subs are automatically better than 18" based ones just because of the driver size, which seemed to be what Nathan was asking about a few posts ago.
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