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Author Topic: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors  (Read 1504 times)

Jack Arnott

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 12:36:12 pm »

I saw this in my searching around!  Is Coax that much better?  And how is the SPL handling?  I have never used a Coax monitor but I hear it is better for feedback and coverage.

A coax is better in that all the sound comes from one source. I am not sure why that would be better for feedback. The advantage is that the HF is constantly the same in regards to the woofer, no matter where you stand. With a separate horn/woofer combo, the distance between the horn and woofer constantly changes, as the listener moves.

Another advantage is that there is no horn to purchase, the cone acts as the horn. The disadvantage to this is that the cone is not as precise of a horn, and there will be more wiggles in the frequency response.

SPL handling will be up to the cone. Usually coaxials are more vocal range, higher sensitivity, not bass oriented, but this is also standard in a lot of 12 monitors.

I can dig coaxials. To me they sound more open, if slightly less high frequency smooth. It is an interesting comparison.
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Jack Arnott

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 12:54:49 pm »

I saw this in my searching around!  Is Coax that much better?  And how is the SPL handling?

The coaxial mentioned is 250 watts/2 VC, vs 400 watts 2.5 VC for the stand alone, and the coaxial is slightly less sensitive (which surprises me). So the trade off is that you are not going to get as much output from the coaxial.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 01:43:33 pm »


Another advantage is that there is no horn to purchase, the cone acts as the horn. The disadvantage to this is that the cone is not as precise of a horn, and there will be more wiggles in the frequency response.



I have always kinda wondered about this. With the HF using the cone of the LF for a horn, what nastiness is happening when there is a large excursion created by an impulse? Is am trying to think of it as the HF being modulated by the LF, but I am not sure if that is the correct analogy.

You see some companies moving full steam ahead with this idea, like those already named in the thread, then others who avoid it all together, like fulcrum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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David Morison

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 02:49:49 pm »

I have always kinda wondered about this. With the HF using the cone of the LF for a horn, what nastiness is happening when there is a large excursion created by an impulse? Is am trying to think of it as the HF being modulated by the LF, but I am not sure if that is the correct analogy.

You see some companies moving full steam ahead with this idea, like those already named in the thread, then others who avoid it all together, like fulcrum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well, many manufacturers avoid the intermodulation problem by mounting a dedicated HF horn in front of the LF cone - RCF, B&C, BMS all spring to mind as having that type of construction.
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James Paul

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 04:50:34 pm »

I have a pair of Seismic Audio FL-12MP........Any thoughts on this? Or better suggestions?

Spinning your wheels. But if you are hell bent on DIY, live and learn.
Used Yammie SM15 IV/V can currently be had as low as a Franklin per @ Banjo Center dotcom, shipped to Albuquerque NM for a couple of Andrew Jacksons.
Yes, MDF construction, and weightier, but IME, solid build that lends well to a solid sound from the standard Eminence Yammie spec components, @ 500/1000 watts, and that beautiful hue of black gorilla fur.
These boxes are near tailor made for the type conditions you describe.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 05:10:32 pm »


Another advantage is that there is no horn to purchase, the cone acts as the horn. The disadvantage to this is that the cone is not as precise of a horn, and there will be more wiggles in the frequency response.


As usual, it depends.

In many cases all of the "HF work" has been done before the sound exits the driver.  There is little to no actual gain to be had by the "cone horn".

The pattern of the cone is wide (typically around 90* give or take), which is the limit of many compression drivers. 

So the cone is not doing any (if much) shaping of the sound.

So if it "moves around a little", it is at the "final" part of a horn, which has the least effect on the performance.

I would also argue, that at the point at which the cone is moving a lot, there is a lot more/other distortions going on.  So the slight pattern change of the HF is one of the least concerns.

Putting a larger cone/horn on a HF driver only has the effect of lower the freq of control.  If the HF driver is not going that low, then a larger horn does nothing.

Remember that the wider the pattern of coverage, the smaller the horn can be to maintain that pattern to a particular freq.

It is only when you go narrow or low that you need larger horns.

It is all interrelated, with a lot of "it depends".
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Steve Loewenthal

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2017, 08:43:54 pm »

Just thought I would throw in my $0.02 worth. About 8 years ago I modified a couple Gem Sound powered speakers. Not sure if they are considered better or worse than Seismic, but definitely in the crap category. I happened to have some slightly better woofers already on hand, and purchased eminence crossovers and hf drivers. (Might have been the PSD2002) (Plus fairly cheap horns)
I paid absolutely no attention to how well matched the HF and LF drivers were. I put just a little (very little) thought into the crossover.

After putting it all together the boxes were (IMNSHO) elevated out of the crap category into the very acceptable for monitors category.
 
The new HF drivers were way more efficient than the LF, so I mainly compensated by adjusting the bass and treble controls on the speaker until they were reasonably matched.

I still have one of these in service in our practice space. It is stored in an attic where summer temperatures probably exceed 135 F on a regular basis.
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Steve Loewenthal

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Augustine Ortiz

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2017, 10:27:51 pm »

Spinning your wheels. But if you are hell bent on DIY, live and learn.
Used Yammie SM15 IV/V can currently be had as low as a Franklin per @ Banjo Center dotcom, shipped to Albuquerque NM for a couple of Andrew Jacksons.
Yes, MDF construction, and weightier, but IME, solid build that lends well to a solid sound from the standard Eminence Yammie spec components, @ 500/1000 watts, and that beautiful hue of black gorilla fur.
These boxes are near tailor made for the type conditions you describe.

No I have looked. 2 Benjamins for a Yammie and at least a Grant for shipping. If you find one online for a single Benjamin, check the shipping. At least a Benjamin for shipping.  And banjitar mart, they do charge shipping now to ship to another store, it is cheaper to have it shipped to my home. Not to mention most of these are beat to hell. 

Mine cosmetically are actually in way better shape, even being beer rags and footstools. Surprising I know.  One of my 15's is pretty jacked, but it was actually from a drunk guy helping me load at the end of the night.

But realistically that is about the performance I expect to get out of these, maybe slightly better.  There are testimonials online about upgrades to the Yammy Club's with similar components to what I am using and claiming they were an improvement.  And these Seismics are similar in size.

And DIY, it is interesting how big of a deal people are making it.  I repair lots of speakers and amps for clients.  I can swap the drivers in under 20 minutes easily, including the cross over.  Especially with speed clips, it goes pretty quick.  The research has taken some time, but damn I have learned a lot, including this thread!  So it has been good for me to learn how to match a driver to a cab because maybe I can suggest alternatives.

I don't do a lot of PA stuff besides replacing blown tweeter diaphragms and fixing broken jacks.  Mostly bass rigs and guitar rigs.  But now I am armed with a lot more knowledge.

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Augustine Ortiz

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2017, 10:37:08 pm »

Oh and I don't disagree with the "just buy better monitors" argument.   In fact, for most situations I would recommend the same.  And I did do that!  But I think in my situation and for the kinds of shows these would be doing, going DIY upgrade is worth a shot.

And as a side note, since I am a repair shop/reseller as well, I can get a lot of these drivers for cheaper.  So that helps on the price front too ;)
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duane massey

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Re: Upgrading Drivers in Cheap Stage Monitors
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 01:46:38 pm »

Go for it.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas
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