ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Down

Author Topic: What's your problem?  (Read 1079 times)

Jonathan Johnson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2650
  • Southwest Washington (state, not DC)
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2017, 12:18:14 pm »


Most of these small church probably don't consider a lot of costs in running a church, royalty fees it they apply( they do to all things not played during the actual pastors sermon here including walk in music and such), liability insurance (don't think someone will sue the church, I think you need to rethink running a church) general building maintenance costs( the amount of churches I've seen that needed to be repainted 10 years ago and have damp in the walls, all brick walls here, and leaking roofs and blown light bulbs).

My church was built in 1898. It seats a hundred; our membership is about 40 including children. Over the last several years, we have spent around $60,000 in major upkeep/repairs -- painting, foundation, flooring, roof, furnace, etc.

It's not for lack of upkeep; it's just stuff that kind of came up for replacement due to age all at once. Thankfully, we have a lot of contacts in the construction industry, so were able to get some work done at a discount.

It has all been paid for through cash flow from donations, not a penny of debt.
Logged
Stop confusing the issue with facts and logic!

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Gauteng, South Africa
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2017, 12:19:43 pm »

The boxes are really only directional very high so the horizontal placement although not optimal and there really isn't too much of an issue, same with the splay out.

More than likely a very poor mic, a good headworn is not cheap or just a very soft speaker on a mic that really doesn't respond well in small rooms without a speaker with a decent voice to them to begin with.

Could also just be a volunteer that has no idea what they are doing using the console since the x/m32 really makes it easy to ring out most feedback seeing as it has an RTA on all the channels.

Don't always assume that the problem is equipment deployed poorly, depending on the loudspeakers the horns could be 60x90 and 60 horizontal is quite adequate for most spaces and it will probably only be 60 from like 2kHz to 6kHz anyway, other than that it was more than likely ranging from sub cardioid to omni

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

Logged
Audio Technician
Word & Life Church

"If you want "loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw------

If you want "watts"-then plug in a toaster"
- Ivan Beaver

Kevin Maxwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 799
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 01:07:33 pm »



Could also just be a volunteer that has no idea what they are doing using the console since the x/m32 really makes it easy to ring out most feedback seeing as it has an RTA on all the channels.

I wanted to comment on that one line. A properly configured sound system shouldnít need to be having feedback rung out on individual channels. The way I setup sound systems the channel EQ is usually only needed for dealing with the tonality of a person or instrument using that input. I EQ the system for linearity, what goes in is what comes out. Then for vocal mics they are in groups for like mics and are those groups are EQed for gain before feedback. With this method your playback and tight miced instruments sound as you would like them to and your whole system isnít EQed to deal with the vocal mics since they are handled separately. And you have the channel EQs to deal with any tonality things you need to.     
Logged

Kevin Maxwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 799
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 01:08:42 pm »

The problems are so many I donít know how to answer this without writing a book but I will try.

I have seen installs that were done by professionals that it seems like they didnít know what they were doing. A couple of years ago I heard a sound system in a recently rebuilt outdoor venue and the group that was preforming was great and it was one of the best systems I have ever heard. Then a little later I saw another group there and the system no longer sounded good. I was the Eng. for a Pops show there earlier this year and the in house people had really messed up the system. I wasnít handed a somewhat working sound system till the orchestra was already rehearsing. They changed some things in the line array hang (d&b audiotechnik) and I donít think they have any idea of the implications of their changes. The whole place had been rebuilt a few years ago so this is a fairly new install. I have tried to get the message to the overseers of this place that they need to have the original installers come back and get the system back together so it is as good as it was at the beginning. BTW even with all of the problems I encountered I got a lot of compliments about the sound at the Pops concert. Later in the summer after a show I was doing elsewhere, some people were talking to me about how bad the sound is at that other venue and I asked then if they were there at the Pops show and how was the sound for that one. They said that one was great and I then told them that I was the Eng. for that one.   

This is a basic saying that I heard a while ago that I will paraphrase. Give a fantastic sound system to someone that doesnít know what they are doing, they are most likely going to have bad sound. Give an OK (not great) sound system to someone who really knows sound and what they are doing and they are likely to get great results. I like to have the best tools available to me but I can usually work with what I am given as long as it all works.

Along the likes of garbage in and garbage out. I have told some pastors that the problem isnít just their sound people it is the band and the arrangements. In one case the players were all good but it seemed to be a free-for-all, players taking leads in the middle of a vocal solo and many other things. They werenít playing together. I have done shows that I am working so hard and constantly to make the band sound good that at the end of the night I am exhausted. And I then have audience members coming up to me saying they never sounded so good. Now in most churches they donít have someone who can do that. Most bands donít spend the time they need to, to get tight, they really need to get the band working together on its own before they get up in front of a congregation with a sound system. If the band was tight then it makes the sound persons job much easier and then maybe a lot of the problem would just go away.

I was recently at a funeral at a relatively large church. They have a few paid people on their technical staff. Their sound guy didnít seem to understand that when you get people speaking at a podium mic he needs to push the quite ones as much as he can and bring down the loud ones so they arenít blowing the room away. And I looked he was back there the whole time. Also all of a sudden the image on the screen that was the same for the whole service went to black. This is a screen that is so wide it has 3 high end laser projectors blended across the screen. 

A lot of sound people including installers arenít very good. Whether that be paid people or volunteers. And a lot of them think that a small church like the OP has mentioned need more gear or more expensive gear then they really do. A lot of churches would be fine with a couple of reasonably priced speakers in the right place. And a properly configured and tuned sound system. I am all for the capabilities that are built into digital mixers, lately I have been using a couple of Midas M32 mixers and I really like them. And for what one gets in some of the reasonably priced digital mixer out there, like the X32, they canít be beat for the price.

There is one church that I have worked with to improve the sound of their system and the music director is a very good musician. He is concerned with the people that he has running sound and at this time doesnít think that a digital mixer is something that they could handle. I have tried to show him the advantages but I am not going to push it because if they really mess it up then I am to blame for pushing it on them.   

Now the acoustics of the church are many times an issue but not usually in small churches as much as they are in the big churches that some people build. Now if it is an old church that was built to sound good with a pipe organ they those are usually a problem with the sound of anything but the pipe organ.

Also I cringe every time someone in a small church and even large churches ďneedĒ to have wireless mics. When there is really is no need for them, most of the time. Let me correct that I cringe when anyone ďneedsĒ to have a wireless when that mic will never even be taken out of its stand. I tell them that to get the quality of a hard wired mic one really has to spend a lot more money than a wire costs. I find it funny when I explain to someone how it takes more wire to properly setup a wireless system then it usually does to just use a wired mic. 

Now keep in mind with all of this that I have said, I am not perfect, I made a mistake once. I thought I was wrong but it turned out that I wasnít. ;-)
Logged

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Gauteng, South Africa
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 02:34:11 pm »

I wanted to comment on that one line. A properly configured sound system shouldnít need to be having feedback rung out on individual channels. The way I setup sound systems the channel EQ is usually only needed for dealing with the tonality of a person or instrument using that input. I EQ the system for linearity, what goes in is what comes out. Then for vocal mics they are in groups for like mics and are those groups are EQed for gain before feedback. With this method your playback and tight miced instruments sound as you would like them to and your whole system isnít EQed to deal with the vocal mics since they are handled separately. And you have the channel EQs to deal with any tonality things you need to.   
Assuming said mic is also flat, if the system was set flat with a reference mic but the mic is crappy and has a peak at 250Hz there will still be feedback at 250 Hz that needs to be pulled out.

X/M32 tells you its at 250Hz so no excuse when you turn it up that you cannot find the feedback.

I do agree though that a system should be tuned correctly and cannot speak for how the specific system was setup.

Ringing out a system with say a 58 doesn't just change the system, if changes the interaction between the two. If you know the system is flat you then know the problem is with the mic, when the concept of ringing out the system started if was any bodies guess as to which was the problem.

Added to that no system is going to be perfectly flat at all points in the room. Due to unfortunate circumstances one of our venues has a 250Hz buildup on stage at about 1.5 to 2 metres high. Right where the vocal mics are at, first few services there was chaos because I just didn't understand how a system that's measuring flat is giving so much crap, till I measured on stage.

Naturally the problem should be fixed by addressing the shoddy system design but no way its going to happen withing budget constrains and coverage requirements so an eq on the buss pulling out 250 Hz from the vocal channels solved the problem.

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

Logged
Audio Technician
Word & Life Church

"If you want "loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw------

If you want "watts"-then plug in a toaster"
- Ivan Beaver

Kevin Maxwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 799
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2017, 03:21:15 pm »

Assuming said mic is also flat, if the system was set flat with a reference mic but the mic is crappy and has a peak at 250Hz there will still be feedback at 250 Hz that needs to be pulled out.

X/M32 tells you its at 250Hz so no excuse when you turn it up that you cannot find the feedback.

I do agree though that a system should be tuned correctly and cannot speak for how the specific system was setup.

Ringing out a system with say a 58 doesn't just change the system, if changes the interaction between the two. If you know the system is flat you then know the problem is with the mic, when the concept of ringing out the system started if was any bodies guess as to which was the problem.

Added to that no system is going to be perfectly flat at all points in the room. Due to unfortunate circumstances one of our venues has a 250Hz buildup on stage at about 1.5 to 2 metres high. Right where the vocal mics are at, first few services there was chaos because I just didn't understand how a system that's measuring flat is giving so much crap, till I measured on stage.

Naturally the problem should be fixed by addressing the shoddy system design but no way its going to happen withing budget constrains and coverage requirements so an eq on the buss pulling out 250 Hz from the vocal channels solved the problem.

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

Just to clarify something you are saying. Are you assuming I am suggesting that a vocal mic would be flat? I am specifically saying that it isnít and that is why after EQing the system properly I then EQ the subgroup with an inserted EQ for the vocal mics in it, for gain before feedback. I also have a separate subgroup for the lavaliers or ear worn mics and I EQ that for gain before feedback for those mics.

I just did a Musical theater show where I had 30 wireless mics, 5 apron mics, 4 hanging mics from the first electric, 1 backstage right mic and 1 backstage left mic. I had different subgroups (Mix Bus) for each of those groups of mics. 1 each for - wireless mics, apron mics, hanging mics, backstage mics. All eqed differently. We were using ear set mics on the wireless. There were times I had a significant number of those wireless on people that where in the audience area where the speakers were covering. I didnít have any feedback issues even when one of the actors walks right by one of the front fill speakers on his way to jump up onto the stage. And this was a loud show, Newsies.     

BTW Shure SM58 mics usually have an issue around 200-250. I use them a lot for vocal mics at concerts. I have found that they arenít the greatest mic but I have also found that many times I donít want to hear the vocalists as clear as they would be on a better mic.
Logged

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

  • Classic LAB
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Gauteng, South Africa
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2017, 11:27:41 am »

Just to clarify something you are saying. Are you assuming I am suggesting that a vocal mic would be flat? I am specifically saying that it isnít and that is why after EQing the system properly I then EQ the subgroup with an inserted EQ for the vocal mics in it, for gain before feedback. I also have a separate subgroup for the lavaliers or ear worn mics and I EQ that for gain before feedback for those mics.

I just did a Musical theater show where I had 30 wireless mics, 5 apron mics, 4 hanging mics from the first electric, 1 backstage right mic and 1 backstage left mic. I had different subgroups (Mix Bus) for each of those groups of mics. 1 each for - wireless mics, apron mics, hanging mics, backstage mics. All eqed differently. We were using ear set mics on the wireless. There were times I had a significant number of those wireless on people that where in the audience area where the speakers were covering. I didnít have any feedback issues even when one of the actors walks right by one of the front fill speakers on his way to jump up onto the stage. And this was a loud show, Newsies.     

BTW Shure SM58 mics usually have an issue around 200-250. I use them a lot for vocal mics at concerts. I have found that they arenít the greatest mic but I have also found that many times I donít want to hear the vocalists as clear as they would be on a better mic.

I think we both said the same thing. You EQ on subgroups for like mics, I just missed that the first time I read you reply. I am all for EQ'ing a system to be flat. I was just saying in this specific situation the mic was probably EQ poorly if it was a decent mic. And for that level install it is more than likely that the system was not EQ'ed at all and then the best option would be to correct the feedback on the specific channel since doing it on the system would effect all other sources as well and it would really be a waste of a group to send 1 microphone to it.
Logged
Audio Technician
Word & Life Church

"If you want "loud", then run a piece of sheet metal through a table saw------

If you want "watts"-then plug in a toaster"
- Ivan Beaver

Jordan Wolf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1207
  • Location: Collingswood, NJ
Re: What's your problem?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2017, 08:06:08 pm »

The goal is to get the message out there without the gear or operator error getting in the way.

This takes skilled operators using gear up to the task.

The ability to handle curveballs and last-minute requests is what sets apart ďproĒ operators and systems from ďregularĒ and why they both make the big bucks (or at least get called back for the positive experience).
Logged
Jordan Wolf
<><

"We want our sound to go into the soul of the audience, and see if it can awaken some little thing in their minds... Cause there are so many sleeping people." - Jimi Hendrix
Pages: 1 2 [3]   Go Up
 


Page created in 0.057 seconds with 19 queries.