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[Roland Clarke]

Both the M32 and X32 have time/phase aligned mix busses and utilize the same exact firmware with the exception of the graphic on startup.

Using an EFX rack item in the insert of a channel introduces additional latency.  This latency is NOT accounted for among the other channels ..... however ...

Unless you mix the same channel together with the raw and "insert processed" signal, you will not hear any difference or have any change in sound quality.

Adding the signals together (using mix groups or matrix groups for instance) will cause the sound of that channel to sound like you put a chorus effect on it

Most of the time, for the vast majority of people this is not a problem.

The SQ will sound better IMO because it has faster processing which allows better processing.  The better processing directly turns into better sound quality.

... and I completely agree... in this day and age, the difference between one preamp and another isn't enough to shake a stick at.  The difference is in the processing engine.

I am really looking forward to hearing the SQ desk.  I Think it is going to sound amazing.

re The M32/X32, this was exactly what I thought might be happening, however, faster processing on another console is only going to change the frequency at which the comb filtering would occur.  I was slightly alarmed to hear that another user was finding varying latency issues on a channel by channel basis with the A&H D-live.

[Andrew Broughton]

Both the M32 and X32 have time/phase aligned mix busses and utilize the same exact firmware with the exception of the graphic on startup.

If true, then there's even MORE reason to question why there is both an X32-CORE and M32-C product at different price points. People buying the M32-C over the X32-CORE are probably the same people that pay extra for Oxygen-free Monster cables.

[Mark Wilkinson]

I haven't seen any tests, but the literature for the M32 claims:
"25 time-aligned and phase-coherent mix buses"

I've checked x-32 main, mix, and matrix buses against each other using Smaart, and against a loopback from soundcard. 
Purpose was solely to see where I could pull Smaart reference feeds from, feeds  that all read the same.......so nothing more than Smaart's pink noise as a signal source.
All buses read the same 0.81ms latency vs looback, and transfers between buses all flat-lined.
Pre post fader, or eq didn't matter.  (Of course any x-over filters do matter on matrix or mains)

My guess is that this is all "25 time-aligned and phase-coherent mix buses" is referrring to...

[Peter Morris]

re The M32/X32, this was exactly what I thought might be happening, however, faster processing on another console is only going to change the frequency at which the comb filtering would occur.  I was slightly alarmed to hear that another user was finding varying latency issues on a channel by channel basis with the A&H D-live.

There is no problems with "varying latency" with the dLive (see the video below), or for that matter any of the other new high ends consoles like the S6L, PM10, Digico's, Midas  etc ... or even the M32 or X32, they are all fine. 

Sure if you insert a digital effect then the latency will change through that channel - just like it did with an analogue console.  Theses effects are simulations of some of the old classic digital and analogue processors and as such they have some additional latency. Midas Pro series for example allows you to add latency to the whole signal chain to compensate for the internal effects (refer attached picture).

Some desks can compensate for the additional latency associated with the  A/D and D/A converters used to send the signal in and out of the desk to some outboard gear, but in 2017 its all a bit moot - most things we will be sending to are digital and have unknown additional latency.

Its really just a matter of making sure you don't double up on the signal flow paths when you do things like this.     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCW-GTjF8nM

[jason misterka]

If true, then there's even MORE reason to question why there is both an X32-CORE and M32-C product at different price points. People buying the M32-C over the X32-CORE are probably the same people that pay extra for Oxygen-free Monster cables.

I believe x32-core is discontinued.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Scott Bolt]

I have an instance where it is very clear that the insert latency causes phase issues. 

IEM Mix setup:  Main L/R = channel 1 on IEM mixer, Vocal = channel 2 on IEM Mixer. 

Put an insert on the Main output (say a multiband compressor).  The main output signal is now delayed by a few mSec from the unprocessed vocal.

When you mix them together in the IEM mixer, you get a phase misalignment by that few mSec.  The bigger the difference, the more easily you can hear it.

Now, I don't do this myself.  I only use the L/R bus 6 band PEQ which doesn't add channel latency on my mains.

As pointed out by Peter, all inserts and external efx on analog boards had this issue as well.  This is simply inheritance in using this signal path combination.  The big difference is that with some digital desks, you can actually account for it and make it go away (pretty cool really).

[David Sturzenbecher]

I've checked x-32 main, mix, and matrix buses against each other using Smaart, and against a loopback from soundcard. 
Purpose was solely to see where I could pull Smaart reference feeds from, feeds  that all read the same.......so nothing more than Smaart's pink noise as a signal source.
All buses read the same 0.81ms latency vs looback, and transfers between buses all flat-lined.
Pre post fader, or eq didn't matter.  (Of course any x-over filters do matter on matrix or mains)

My guess is that this is all "25 time-aligned and phase-coherent mix buses" is referrring to...

I just checked my x-32 rack.  Sent pink noise from Smaart into a channel, routed that channel to the main left right, and received 1.5ms latency.  (0ms with wired loopback)   I took that same channel added a send an aux bus, into a fairchild comp (simulating a drum smash) then out the FX return, into the mains.  The Effects loop was 2.15ms, and of course when combined with the mains, created a nice comb. 

So their definition "phase aligned busses" is clearly not the same as Avids.

[Mark Wilkinson]

I just checked my x-32 rack.  Sent pink noise from Smaart into a channel, routed that channel to the main left right, and received 1.5ms latency.  (0ms with wired loopback)   I took that same channel added a send an aux bus, into a fairchild comp (simulating a drum smash) then out the FX return, into the mains.  The Effects loop was 2.15ms, and of course when combined with the mains, created a nice comb. 

So their definition "phase aligned busses" is clearly not the same as Avids.

I think we ...Peter, Scott, you, me....are all saying the same thing regarding a desk's ability to incorporate external processing into the overall bus latency scheme....doesn't happen unless something truly special is going on. 
Does Avid actually account for external processing delay on a channel, and then adjust all buses?
Certainly doesn't happen with an x-32

I have to say something sounds funny with the x-32 times you posted.
IME, if you split the soundcard's output to go to an x-32 channel input and also to the soundcard's input  for a reference loopback, .......you should read .81ms. 
Something doesn't sound right with 1.5ms. .....too much.
And your 0ms timing has me puzzled too...it sounds like you're pulling reference from an x-32 output?

[David Sturzenbecher]

The 0ms was a wired loopback to from soundcard out (reference) to CH1 sound card in. The actual reference was the same path just going back in CH2. So my 0ms was just a double check my testing setup and I would expect 0ms.  I can double check my mixer setup again tomorrow, it's possible (and the more I think about it, highly likely) I had GEQ or buss comp on the overall left right.  That wouldn't change the combing issue though, just overall latency.

I know Robert Scovill had a really good video explaining how the Venue consoles did latency compensation, and a few tricks to make it work in all scenarios. I can't seem to find it with a quick search from my pocket computer, but the idea allowed you to run parallel wet and dry audio paths within your desk... no truly external (to the desk) processing... and have those paths be latency compensated and summed properly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

Its possible for avid to compensate but I'm not sure if they do compensate in reality.

All plugins report latency to the desk do it is quite easy for them to compensate for it.

Remember all the processing goes through the TDM HD cards in the old avid consoles and in the HDx cards in the new ones. The desks processor doesn't handle audio at all, everything is done on the FPGA on the HD/HDx cards.

This could add significant delay to the entire desk tough depending on the specific plugin.

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[ProSoundWeb Community]