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Author Topic: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???  (Read 973 times)

Brian Strike

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Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« on: November 05, 2017, 11:26:36 am »

Hi all,

This may be a newbie question for some of you but I'm entering new territory here and am a bit confused.

I've been mixing on a Yamaha LS9-32 for probably 8 years.   I plan to keep this board - I'm very comfortable on it and know my way around it well.  I"ve got it set up with iPad, etc.   and don't have a need to upgrade my board to anything else at this time. 

I've been using a traditional analog snake (Whirlwind 24/8) and would like to upgrade to a digital stage box to run Cat5e instead of a giant analog snake.  Also, I'm interested in looking into the Behringer P16 monitor mixing stations.  I've heard they're decent.  We want to update into something with a little more independent control than my current monitor set up, which is just 4 separate monitor mixes running through wedges. 

I have no experience with the card that I need to install in the back of the LS9, so I'm curious as to how to best set this up.  In other words, I don't want to spend a lot of money until I understand how to make the LS9 "talk to" the Behringer Digital Stage box, using whatever kind of card I need to purchase and put into the card slot in the back of the LS9. 
What kind of card do I need to install in this LS9 to interface with the Behringer digital stage box?  I want to use the Behringer stage box in particular so that it interfaces well with the Behringer P16 monitoring stations.  I know that the Behringer stage box requires a board with AES50 technology - this means nothing to me.  Is there a certain "card" that I need to enter into the LS9 to accept AES50 technology and mate the LS9 with the Behringer? 
Is there any other place where anyone can point me to learn about this type of stuff?  I've been doing sound (self taught) for 20 years, used a digital board for the past 8, but the cat5e stuff, digital stage boxes, I/O cards are new.....

Thanks so much!!
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Riley Casey

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 12:42:37 pm »

Can't get there from here.  If you want a digital stage box for your LS9 your need to buy Yamaha stage boxes.  Your two card slots would permit 32 inputs but if you want head amp control from the surface of the console only the Ethersound boxes will do that.  When using the Dante boxes mic pre control would have to come from a computer. 

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/products/mixers/ls9/features.jsp#dante

 
Hi all,

This may be a newbie question for some of you but I'm entering new territory here and am a bit confused.

I've been mixing on a Yamaha LS9-32 for probably 8 years.   I plan to keep this board - I'm very comfortable on it and know my way around it well.  I"ve got it set up with iPad, etc.   and don't have a need to upgrade my board to anything else at this time.  ...

Keith Broughton

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 12:56:07 pm »

As Riley said, it's a no go.
Other than the user controlled monitor system, I see no benefit to changing to a digital head if you already have a multi channel snake.
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Robert Lofgren

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 01:30:05 pm »

Use the p16i on your ls9 if you want to use that monitor system.

Unless you plan on getting a m/x32 anytime soon I don’t see any benefit in getting a behringer/midas stagebox.
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Brian Strike

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 01:39:15 pm »

Use the p16i on your ls9 if you want to use that monitor system.

Unless you plan on getting a m/x32 anytime soon I don’t see any benefit in getting a behringer/midas stagebox.

Thanks everyone - Robert, if I use the P16i isn't that also going to cause the same non-communicative issues with the LS9 as the Digital stage box? 
Are you suggesting that I use the P16i to connect all inputs, then send ethernet to the P16M stations and then one ethernet to the LS9 for master mixer control for FOH? 

Thanks again everyone - like I said, this is all new to me and I want to make sure I don't spend money on something that won't work.
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Ron Bolte

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 01:48:48 pm »

If you are only looking for 16 channels over cat5e/6, consider the TIO1608 with the MY18 AUD card, its head amps can be controlled by the LS9, its a bit wonky, as the head amps show up as a "rack" effect, but it does work.

Seriously though, if all you are looking for is more monitor options with your LS9, try out the "Monitor Mix" app for iPad, with a wifi hotspot connected to your LS9, it supports as many mixes as you have available, on as many iPads.
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Brian Strike

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 02:04:58 pm »

If you are only looking for 16 channels over cat5e/6, consider the TIO1608 with the MY18 AUD card, its head amps can be controlled by the LS9, its a bit wonky, as the head amps show up as a "rack" effect, but it does work.

Seriously though, if all you are looking for is more monitor options with your LS9, try out the "Monitor Mix" app for iPad, with a wifi hotspot connected to your LS9, it supports as many mixes as you have available, on as many iPads.


Thanks Ron - never used the MonitorMix app - good suggestion!! I'm going to look into that.  I use Stagemix to mix FOH from my iPad, so perhaps this is a great solution.   
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brian maddox

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 03:45:06 pm »

...

Is there any other place where anyone can point me to learn about this type of stuff?  I've been doing sound (self taught) for 20 years, used a digital board for the past 8, but the cat5e stuff, digital stage boxes, I/O cards are new.....

Thanks so much!!

Everything the others wrote on this thread was absolutely correct and good advice.  But i don't think it really filled in the gaps in your basic knowledge on the subject.  So i'm going to try to semi-succinctly do just that.  So here goes...

1.   There are several competing "digital audio over Cat5/6 cable" protocols.  For the most part they are all incompatible with each other, and that's by design since they are typically proprietary to a manufacturer who is wanting to keep you in their eco-system as much as possible.  Even when you do find a protocol that will 'talk' to several different manufacturers products, there are often hidden 'gotchas' like remote control of Mic Preamps and the like.

2.  AES50 is a Midas/Behringer/The Music Group protocol and Yamaha does not make a product for their consoles that will interface with it since they want to steer you to their preferred protocols, namely Ethersound [Their originally preferred format] and Dante [their currently preferred format].

3.  The Music Group DOES make a card compatible with Dante for their X32 series of consoles. Dante is becoming the closest thing to a universal format that we've got currently.  The X32 series also has a direct output to feed the P16 Personal Monitoring System so that's a bonus.  You can also get Dante cards that work with the LS9.  So you could theoretically use an X32 console as your monitor console and have that feed your LS9 via Dante.

but...  Here's the gotcha...

You cannot control the mic pre's on the X32 directly from the LS9.  You'd have to use some kind of software control for that.  and....

You would need TWO Yamaha Dante cards since the Yamaha card slot only supports up to 16 Ins and Outs [The x32 card slot supports 32].  And the Yamaha cards are about 600 US a piece.  Add to that the cost of an X32 with it's associated Dante card and the costs add up quick.

So for these reasons, sticking with the LS9 as your preferred console but replacing your copper snake with a digital one is unfortunately more costly and complicated than it probably should be. 

I hope that helps explain the already great advice you've been given a little more. 

Good Luck!
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brian maddox
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brian maddox

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 03:54:41 pm »

Thanks everyone - Robert, if I use the P16i isn't that also going to cause the same non-communicative issues with the LS9 as the Digital stage box? 
Are you suggesting that I use the P16i to connect all inputs, then send ethernet to the P16M stations and then one ethernet to the LS9 for master mixer control for FOH? 

Thanks again everyone - like I said, this is all new to me and I want to make sure I don't spend money on something that won't work.

The P16 system runs on a protocol called Ultranet which is currently limited to 16 channels in one direction.  It is intended to specifically feed the P16 Personal Mixers although they do sell some speakers that will take it as an input.  You could use an MY-Adat card in your LS9 paired with a P16i to feed P16 mixers on stage via a Cat5/6 cable.  But...  There is NO Ultranet solution that i know of that would provide a replacement for your copper snake.

Also note:  Almost none of the digital audio protocols are Ethernet compatible.  They are proprietary formats and will NOT work with standard Ethernet switches/routers/etc.  The exception to this is Dante which explains why it is becoming so popular.
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brian maddox
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Erik Jerde

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 05:32:07 pm »

Also note:  Almost none of the digital audio protocols are Ethernet compatible.  They are proprietary formats and will NOT work with standard Ethernet switches/routers/etc.  The exception to this is Dante which explains why it is becoming so popular.

I believe Roland's REAC can run over an ip switched network.  Haven't tried it but there is a reac driver software available that then allows you to capture the reac stream via the Ethernet card on a standard pc.
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Brian Strike

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 07:48:25 pm »

Everything the others wrote on this thread was absolutely correct and good advice.  But i don't think it really filled in the gaps in your basic knowledge on the subject.  So i'm going to try to semi-succinctly do just that.  So here goes...

1.   There are several competing "digital audio over Cat5/6 cable" protocols.  For the most part they are all incompatible with each other, and that's by design since they are typically proprietary to a manufacturer who is wanting to keep you in their eco-system as much as possible.  Even when you do find a protocol that will 'talk' to several different manufacturers products, there are often hidden 'gotchas' like remote control of Mic Preamps and the like.

2.  AES50 is a Midas/Behringer/The Music Group protocol and Yamaha does not make a product for their consoles that will interface with it since they want to steer you to their preferred protocols, namely Ethersound [Their originally preferred format] and Dante [their currently preferred format].

3.  The Music Group DOES make a card compatible with Dante for their X32 series of consoles. Dante is becoming the closest thing to a universal format that we've got currently.  The X32 series also has a direct output to feed the P16 Personal Monitoring System so that's a bonus.  You can also get Dante cards that work with the LS9.  So you could theoretically use an X32 console as your monitor console and have that feed your LS9 via Dante.

but...  Here's the gotcha...

You cannot control the mic pre's on the X32 directly from the LS9.  You'd have to use some kind of software control for that.  and....

You would need TWO Yamaha Dante cards since the Yamaha card slot only supports up to 16 Ins and Outs [The x32 card slot supports 32].  And the Yamaha cards are about 600 US a piece.  Add to that the cost of an X32 with it's associated Dante card and the costs add up quick.

So for these reasons, sticking with the LS9 as your preferred console but replacing your copper snake with a digital one is unfortunately more costly and complicated than it probably should be. 

I hope that helps explain the already great advice you've been given a little more. 

Good Luck!




Thanks Brian - very succinct and informational!! 
Seems like sticking with an analog snake is the way to go - going digital/cat5e and mixing various companies and proprietary software is not going to work. 

I'm going to go back to the drawing board in regards to ideas for monitor mixes.  I liked the individual control that the P16M could have provided each musician on stage, but I don't want to buy tens of thousands of new equipment, including FOH mixer, etc in order to make it work.
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brian maddox

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 08:13:48 pm »

...

I'm going to go back to the drawing board in regards to ideas for monitor mixes.  I liked the individual control that the P16M could have provided each musician on stage, but I don't want to buy tens of thousands of new equipment, including FOH mixer, etc in order to make it work.

For what it's worth...

If i were starting from your premise of keeping the LS9, this is what i would do.  You can get a Behringer P16i and a Yamaha MY-AT card and spend about 700 bucks.  This gives you that 16 channel Ultranet output for your LS9 that i was referencing above.  You can then send a single Cat5/6 cable to the stage and use that to feed as many P16 personal mixers as you've got the money to buy [they're about 300 dollars apiece].  Each P16 then gets to set it's own mix of those 16 channels right on stage.  The nice thing about this approach is you can start with 1 or 2 and then proceed from there if the strategy really works out well for you.

So, not tens of thousands.  But admittedly not pocket change either...
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brian maddox
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Tim Tyler

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 04:44:07 pm »

Brian -

The LS9-32 has 64 input CHANNELS.  You can digitally split channels 1-32 into 33-64, respectively.  The 32 channels that are normally fed by the xlr input ports will be mirrored on channels 33-64, sharing only the HEAD AMP section (preamp gain, phantom power, signal polarity).  You may use the mirrored channels 33-64 as monitor channels, sending the signal only to the mixbusses used as monitor (foldback) sends (not LR mains).  You will have full independent use of the channel EQ, gate, comp, etc. for the monitors.  As long as you have access to enough snake return channels, you might solve your problem in this manner.

You can also buy some "Y" splitters for the important channels - such as vocals - plugging each input into 2 channels, one for mains and one for monitors.  These channels will be completely independent, with separate HEAD AMP controls as well as the channel functions above.

This is pretty standard generic procedure; not knowing your input needs, or the channel availability and usage on your snake sends & returns, I can foresee you perhaps having to solve some send or return issues...

Regards,

-Tim T
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Leland Green

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 07:28:02 pm »

Can't get there from here.  If you want a digital stage box for your LS9 your need to buy Yamaha stage boxes.  Your two card slots would permit 32 inputs but if you want head amp control from the surface of the console only the Ethersound boxes will do that.  When using the Dante boxes mic pre control would have to come from a computer. 

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/northamerica/en_us/products/mixers/ls9/features.jsp#dante

Hi Riley,

You can control the R-series stage boxes from an LS9.  You'll need one Dante MY16 card for every 16 channels of audio (1st card in slot 1 for head amp control) and you will need to set dip switch 5 in the down position.  The places the Rio in "AD8HR" mode and allows it to be controlled from consoles like the LS9, M7CL , and PM5D.
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 06:23:25 pm »

I think you are opening up a world of pain and expense for little gain.  The ls9 is as outdated as it gets and even more limited than the X32.  To throw money into one now is a really bad investment, I’d bite the bullet and get either an X32 or one of the new Yamaha’s such as the TF.  There are both far more capable consoles and will likely do all you need.
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Alec Spence

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 11:26:12 am »

I think you are opening up a world of pain and expense for little gain.  The ls9 is as outdated as it gets and even more limited than the X32.  To throw money into one now is a really bad investment, I’d bite the bullet and get either an X32 or one of the new Yamaha’s such as the TF.  There are both far more capable consoles and will likely do all you need.
That was what I was waiting for all through the thread.  For you to get remote monitor mixing and a digital snake, your LS9 is never going to cut the mustard, and will cost you a packet.

Bizarrely, LS9s still pick up decent money used - so you might even be able to replace it with an X32 on a cost neutral (or even profitable) basis.  After that, life gets easy - just add S16/S32 stageboxes and P16 monitor mixers - and ditch the big heavy multicore.  You'll be surprised by how much more capable the X32 is than the LS9 - and you'll settle into it pretty quickly...
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Yamaha LS9 + Behringer Stage box + CARD???
« Reply #16 on: Yesterday at 05:33:02 pm »


Bizarrely, LS9s still pick up decent money used - so you might even be able to replace it with an X32 on a cost neutral (or even profitable) basis.  After that, life gets easy - just add S16/S32 stageboxes and P16 monitor mixers - and ditch the big heavy multicore.  You'll be surprised by how much more capable the X32 is than the LS9 - and you'll settle into it pretty quickly...

The LS9 is still a pretty solid mixer, basically everything you need for a small show in one box.  We’re still making money from ours, in various boring jobs. 

But if I was on a budget and wanted Yamaha, I’d buy a TF in a heartbeat. 
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